Thursday, January 18, 2007

Pokerstars Rant

OK. I confess early on here that I really don't know where this post is going to end up. I also confess to not really feeling like my usual self right now. That might make for a fun combination when it comes to blog ranting posting, we'll just have to wait and see till I'm done here.

OK so last night at the virtual tables, I think I experienced something pretty significant. I have played at pokerstars since the beginning. This was August of 2005 when my college buddy finally convinced me to put some real money into pokerstars, his poker site of choice, and since then I've never looked back. I have been playing far, far more at full tilt lately than at pokerstars, because full tilt is approximately 856 times better than pokerstars could ever hope to be. But I still play at stars. My weekly Hoy tournament is there. I play PLO tournaments there many nights. Lately I've been playing the nightly 100k tournament there some nights as well. My point is, even though full tilt blows pokerstars away in terms of the overall structure of their games and the mtt's they offer, I still play quite a bit at pokerstars and am responsible for a pretty consistent stream of revenues to them.

Well, last night all that might have changed. Last night was I think a real-eye opener for me with pokerstars, and I don't know for sure what the long-term results of it will be, but they could be significant for me in terms of where I play my online poker. So yesterday, I decided to be a real man and play the nightly 150k at 9pm ET which runs on Wednesday nights on pokerstars. This is consistent with my goals for 2007 to try to play some of the larger prize pool tournaments, having done very well for myself at the level of tournaments I played during most of 2006 (10k to 30k or so mostly). As you may recall, a couple of weeks back I final tabled this biatch for a 10th place finish and about $1200 cash, so I've taken a few more shots since then, and last night would be my latest.

And my last.

But I am getting ahead of myself. So, after two straight days of utterly reCOCKulous suckouts against me at everything I touched online, last night I logged on to pokerstars shortly before 9pm ET and registered for this nightly 150k. I was excited because the total prize pool ended up reaching well over $200,000, and I was looking at that 52k first prize with saliva dripping from my mouth, and I was ready to make some noise. If you recall from my last few posts, although I haven't won shiat over the past two days, those losses are almost exclusively due to horrifying suckouts, and in reality I have been playing exceedingly well. So well that I've even been waiting until after the flop falls before pushing allin with the dominatingly best hand, dramatically decreasing my chances of getting recockusucked on to the upper single digits or maybe low teens percentagewise. Sure it is fucking killing me to have lost with multiple such favorites since Monday, but as far as the quality of my play, I have really been fucking with people and reading them well, but just getting recockuscrewed by the cards. Variance. The poker fuckbags. Whatever you want to call it.

OK so back to last night. I'm in this 150k guaranteed tournament, I've been playing awesome lately but getting unbelievably bad cards. So it's the third hand of this tournament. I am dealt pocket Aces on the button. Love it! UTG raises the blinds to 300 (starting stacks were 2500 chips), a fairly large raise all things considered. He's UTG, so I have to figure this guy for a big, big hand. It folds around to me, and I'm laughing because I already know I'm about to stack someone who is probably holding pocket Jacks through pocket Kings, or AK, any one of which is a sick, sick dog to my pocket Aces. So, rather than push allin right here -- which I figured he might have called but might not since it was just the third hand of a large buyin tournament -- I just went for the 3x reraise of his bet, to 900 chips (again, out of starting stacks fo 2500, so a very, very significant raise from me here in the earlygoing). The action folds back to him, and he quickly calls my raise. Again, I am salivating here. And I'm really glad once again I am waiting to see the flop before putting in the rest of my chips, because on the off chance that it comes KQJ or 789 triple-suited or something like that, I can still fold if I'm pretty sure from the action on the flop that I just got hosed (again).

The flop comes a raggorific 589 with two clubs (neither Ace in my hand is a club). I believe there was 1860 chips in the pot heading into the flop. My opponent leads out for a bet of 500. Again, I'm laughing. This guy just got uberhosed by the raggalicious flop, he's got a big pair and I have the killer pair of Aces. I minraise his ass. Yes, because I'm that good. He's sitting on Queens or Kings, and he's going to have to reraise me allin here, given that literally half his starting stack is now in this pot, and I'm sure he has the tremendous overpair. This little bitch does exactly what I commanded him to do with my bet -- insta-pushes -- and I call even faster and show him my Aces. Muhahahahahahaha!

And he flips over...

76 of diamonds.

Uh huh. RIGHT, pokerstars. Or should I say, FUCKERSTARS! Do you mean to tell me that this anal canal of a man raised it up like 7x UTG with 76s? Did that really happen? And then when I reraised him for over a third of his stack -- third hand in to a large buyin tournament, mind you -- he instantly called that bet? With 76s? Did that really happen too? Really? And then the flop just happened to fall with the three perfect cards to make him the nut straight, just like that? When I had pocket Aces? And this guy called my 900 chip raise preflop with 76s?

OK pokerstars well here's where we're at. I don't believe you. I don't fucking believe this for one red second.

Listen, pokerstars, you little SHITS. I've given you a lot of money over time. A lot of rake, a whole lot of tournament fees, etc. I have personally brought maybe 10 friends and acquaintances of mine to play at pokerstars over the past 18 months or so. So you've gotten money from all of them as well. In fact, all the money these people ever spend with you is directly, solely and undeniably attributable to me, period. Plus, I have held a weekly private tournament at pokerstars for the better part of the past year. I happen to know of at least a handful of players from that weekly game who would have never signed up to play at pokerstars if not for the weekly Hoy tournament. I told them to sign up with you, you assholes! I fucking convinced people to play at your site in some cases. And again, all the money you little whores ever make from any of those people, also all 100% attributable to little old me. Period. So there's a bunch more money I have brought you. That you would never have sniffed if not for me. Am I trying to say that pokerstars would be bankrupt if not for me? No. But what I am saying is that I have been the most loyal pokerstars user there is, for quite a long while now, and I am personally and directly responsible for a fair amount of steady user revenue that pokerstars has enjoyed over the past year and a half.

Well, I don't know what it was about last night's beat, but it just doesn't sit right with me. Try as I might, I simply cannot accept that someone raised big UTG with 76s, at the exact same time as I am dealt pocket Aces, that I reraised them for 36% of their stack preflop with my Aces, and they fucking called the bet instantly. With 76s?!!! People wouldn't do that with fucking KQs, least of all in a large buyin tournament like this. Uh uh. I just don't believe it. And then, by pure random chance, the flop just happens to come down 589? On the third hand of this large tournament? When I have pocket Aces?

COME ON YOU LITTLE SHITS! YOU CANNOT REALLY EXPECT ME TO BELIEVE THAT CAN YOU? WHAT, DO YOU THINK I'M STUPID? NO! YOU'RE THE STUPID ONES, POKERSTARS! BECAUSE I'M NOT STUPID LIKE YOU THINK I AM. I KNOW THIS IS NOT A REALISTIC OUTCOME, SO I KNOW SOMETHING IS UP. I admit that I don't know what went on last night. I'm not coming out and saying that something is fixed. I'm going to leave the conclusions to whoever wants to draw them. All I'm saying is that what happened to me on the third hand of the biggest tournament I've ever played on pokerstars is Simply. Not. Believable.

Let me be clear here. This was not some strange 2-outer on the river. That happens to all of us sometimes (ok, to me much more often than everyone else, but still). That occurrence has a mathematical probability assigned to it, and what that means is that, when I've got some jackidiot drawing dead to 2 outs with one card to come, he's going to hit one of those two outs 5% of the time. So, if I get myself into that situation 20 times (usually about how many times I get there in a given mtt, when I'm playing well), one of those 20 times is going to see the guy hit his miracle, and maybe knock me out of a tournament in a huge spot where I am left furious with rage. Fine. In fact, the law of odds could even have this 2-outer underdog hit one of his two outs against me twice in a row. Maybe even three times out of 5. Things like that all have a mathematical probability assigned to them, and that means that, if played enough times, shit like that is bound to happen.

But you see, pokerstars, this is where you fucked up last night. ROYALLY. What happened to me on this hand is not such a situation. This was not a longshot drawing situation where a guy hit his miracle 1- or 2-outer on the river, his 20-to-1 shot or whatever the odds are. This is far more insidious. Here a guy puts in a huge UTG raise very early in a large buyin mtt, with a horrendously unplayable hand like 76s. I don't even know how to assign a thing like odds to this move. Let's just say it's highly rare to see this. Then he calls my huge reraise with that same hand, and does so more or less instantaneously. Again, assigning odds to this move is very difficult. I'm going to go ahead and say it is less than 1% that a guy raises big UTG with this hand, and then calls off more than a third of his stack on a reraise on the third hand of a large buyin tournament. Somewhere less than 1% likelihood. Throw in the fact that I have pocket Aces on the exact same hand, and we're down into the micro-fractions of percent IMO. Something grosseningly low.

And THEN, then the flop comes down, and it's the perfect flop for this shitforbrains' hand. I mean fucking perfect. The odds of all of this happening randomly are so astronomically low, it is in a completely different league than any kind of 1-outer on the river. That 1-outer on the river still carries a nearly 2.5% likelihood of happening, every single time someone can catch one card with one card left to come. 2.5%, meaning that once every 40 times, it's going to hit. This situation with me last night, however, is probably closer to 1000 times less likely than that. It's so unlikely, that I just don't accept that it happened. I don't know how to explain it. But I do know what I'm going to do about it.

I don't plan to play at pokerstars anymore. Right now, I feel happy saying I won't play there at all, ever. Maybe my feeling will change on this point over time, but the way I feel sitting here right now, several hours after The Event, I have absolutely no desire to play anything at pokerstars ever again. If I have lost faith in the randomness of the cards -- and again this is not some 39-to-1 one-outer situation, which, with the amount I play, is bound to happen to me more often than I care to think -- there is just no way I am going back to your little fucksite anytime soon to face you little shits and your shiteating nowhere-near-as-good-as-full-tilt software, variety, etc. No way.

If Neteller hadn't fucked all of U.S. players yesterday, I would have withdrawn every dime from pokerstars last night, except for the money I owe to the top 3 finishers in my NFL Pick'em pool (which I plan to transfer this evening btw since I have not heard any objections in a week from A Bunch of No Name Scrubs, whoever that may be). As it stands right now, I guess I can't withdraw that money to Neteller, so I'll figure something out to get my funds out of there. But pokerstars, you royally fucked up last night, and you've lost me, period. I don't buy in to the biggest online tournament of my life, only to see a player make an unbelievable play UTG preflop, then an even more unbelievable play to call my reraise preflop, and then flop the absolutely perfect flop to set him up and steal all of my chips. Because that's exactly what this was -- stealing. It's fucking theft, pokerstars, and you are the thieves. You fucking stole my buyin, the biggest I've ever played in on your site. You STOLE it. I don't need to bother hypothesizing about specifically how you did it. All I know is, you did.

And for once in my life, I know I can do something about it, pokerstars. You stole a couple hundy from me, and I know for absolute certain I can cost you a heck of a lot more than a couple hundy in lost tournament fees, rake, etc. And it won't even take me very long to do it. Just from my own play alone, within the span of maybe 2 months of not playing at all at pokerstars, you'll have already lost out on more than a couple hundy in fees from me. Plus, I am inclined to move the weekly Hoy tournament to full tilt now as well. It probably should have been there for a long time ago anyways, and I've already got some fun ideas going for what to do with the Hoy. I will make any announcements about that shortly.

So that's it for now. As I reread this I don't think it's much of a rant. But I don't care.

Pokerstars....F OFF!!!


Blogger Eric a.k.a. Bone Daddy said...

You can't blame poker stars there, the same thing happened to me playing live at the Bay 101 last spring, almost detail to detail, hell, it was probably the same moron college kid from Santa Clara that figured calling 76 sooted pre-flop works live, so why wouldn't it work at fuckerstars. Feel you pain, shake it off.

2:52 AM  
Blogger Dave said...

I've seen some pretty unf'in-believable outcomes on hands at Stars over the last 3 years. Almost makes one believe that Stars is trying to randomly distribute all the cash so that they can keep taking rake from everyone. After all, if all the good players simply cleaned up the majority of the time, the bad players would leave and thus cause less rake for their site.

That players calls did NOT make sense. It's almost like P* rewards bad play. In many many situations, I've seen the bad call get rewarded. Ya, it is redonkulous at times.

2:53 AM  
Blogger L'artiste said...

Fold to flop-push. As played, fold pre-flop.

Seriously, I have to echo Bone Daddy’s thoughts here. Same type of garbage happened to me live also. I had Queens on the button and with a zillion limpers in front I jam my whole stack in. Some UTG limper mouth breather idiot calls me with 5-6s and hits the miracle 7-8-9 flop to cripple my stack to mere crumbs. Needless to say I was pissed.

3:05 AM  
Blogger Pokerwolf said...

So, what happens when something similar happens at Full Tilt, Hoy?

Are you going to quit online poker cold turkey then?

3:19 AM  
Blogger lucko said...

I got a similiar rant from one of my buddies about being done with FTP and going back to Stars. How FTP was constantly rigged and screwed him over. If you feel tilted\cheated on a site, it is going to make it much harder to play good poker on that site. Probably letting Stars go for a while is a good idea.

And my god. that hand was very f'ing sick .

3:48 AM  
Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

I've never seen anything like this on full tilt. And this is coming from someone who has suffered innumerable bad beats on full tilt, including at least 474,369 bad beats this week alone on ftp. But nothing that compares to this kind of beat.

And to l'artiste -- I take your point. Somehow though, losing to 56 on a flop of 789 is not as offensive to me as losing to the inside version of that straight, to the clown holding 76 and the flop is 589. I imagine the odds are similarly astronomical, but it just seems much, much worse. Especially given that, at least in your scenario, that guy didn't even flop the nuts. He loses there if you have T6 ot JT. Not that you had it, but there is something about the nutty nature of this play that just leaves me feeling very curious about the whole thing.

Thanks as always for the comments.

And l'artise and Eric, are you guys really talking about someone who called off a third of their stack in a large buyin event on the third hand with low suited connectors like that, and then flopped the nuts with it?

3:48 AM  
Blogger L'artiste said...

I actually had my guy covered. I was the table chip leader but not by much since I was ridiculously crippled afterwards. He was a pretty awful player that would call down bets all the way to the river with any ace, overcards, etc. He pretty much put his tournament life on the line with 5-6s pre-flop when he had LOTS of chips left. Those things happen I guess.

3:58 AM  
Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

And to be clear, I do not want to be the guy claiming that a poker site is rigged per se. I purposely stopped short of saying exactly that in my rant here. I'm just saying that this whole thing has left me feeling pretty gross and just generally unsettled about the whole thing with pokerstars, to the point that I can't see playing in any real tournament of any real value to me anymore. Maybe I will calm down over the next few days, but you will most definitely not see me buying in to any big tournaments over there anytime soon, that I can guarantee you.

4:03 AM  
Blogger Patch said...

You ran into an idiot who got incredibly lucky. Unfortunate. I feel for you. But what exactly would be PokerStars motivation for orchestrating such a thing? Did this bozo go on to win the tournament? Do you honestly think the powers that be at PokerStars believe in redistribution of wealth?

While your aces were clearly the big favorite before the flop, you were still only 77% to win. The odds of that particular flop are pretty astronomical, but there were several other combinations that would have given him the nuts, even better nuts than what he had.

I was watching one of the past Bay 101 tournaments recently and saw some total clown make mistake after mistake yet always hit just the cards he needed to survive. At one point he was 0.5% to win on the flop and managed to turn and river the only two cards in the deck that would help him. It was quite probably the sickest thing I've ever seen at a poker table. And this idiot went on to win the whole thing.

Despite your recent bad luck, PokerStars is no better or worse on dealing suckouts than any other site. Or even any other live venue.

4:16 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...

How would you feel if he turned over 55, 88, or 99 for the set?

Not that I condone his call, but maybe he put you solidly on AA or KK and would have released if the flop didn't hit him (ala Danny N.).

Then again, knowing the fish that play online he thought being sOOted was gold.

4:50 AM  
Blogger manik79 said...

That is a sick beat and a sick play pre flop... Not sure what else to say there.

5:13 AM  
Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

Drizz, it's funny because I've thought about that exact question, and the answer is, it would not have bothered me nearly as much if he flipped up a pocket pair that ended up making a set. I would be pissed at that beat for sure, but it's not nearly so ridiculous for the guy to call off a third of his stack with pocket 9s, say. Or, to be clear, that is still a fairly fishy call for 36% of his stack on hand #3 of the tournament, but that kind of play is simply not that out of the ordinary for a guy holding a medium pair in your typical online mtt.

The flop that did fall, however, has left me feeling gross. Dirty. Like I need to run home today and take a hot shower to cleanse myself for even having been a part of that hand.

5:33 AM  
Blogger mookie99 said...

Sick, sick hand...What about the MATH ?

Thanks for playing last night.

6:07 AM  
Blogger EN09 said...

WOW! Tough pull there buddy. I took a break from vPoker and went ice fishing today. Caught a bucketful of Yellow Perch, downed a few brewskies, enjoyed myself (and not that way pervs) in the morning and early afternoon sun, hovering over my flasher with an ultralight in my hand. And no doubt saved myself around 50BB's by not going near the laptop.

A bet saved is a bet earn... oh well you know that.

Two words for you Hoy...

1) Dead

2) Wood. ;-)


6:49 AM  
Blogger Heavy Critters said...

Maybe the guy had no idea you were on aces or kings. He just wanted either a quick double up if he hit, or could let go if he didn't.

From my experience on FT AND PokerStars, it's not the flop that'll kill you, but the river.

8:23 AM  
Blogger slb159 said...

Sounds like a situational type post as much as anything. The opportunity to make a big score and a significant investment to do so can be overwhelming when something like that happens.

When I won my seat to the 200K on FT (yes, back then, it was the 200K), I had my starting deep stack up to over 9K in chips and just a mere few behind the tables leader about 15 minutes before the second break.

When disaster struck.

Everyone at the table but one was below starting stacks and the slightly larger stack raises me and I call with my 8's...and promptly hit top set on an uncoordinated board. I purposely overbet-shove and he calls with aces...and turns an ace.

Yes, this is something that is typical as you mentioned, and not nearly as bad as what you faced, but my point is, the situation thing.

You could have doubled up early and used your style to bully the table and accumulate even more chips in the process.

Same goes for me...I would have had close to 20K in chips, 10x more than anyone at the table. Now, I'm a BIT less aggressive than you, but I am confident I could have done something with that stack.

So I think the wouldda couldda shouldda factor plays somewhat of a part in your feelings, which I'm sure it does. The opportunity to make a significant score is always disappointing when it doesn't work out.

Like you said, that was the largest prize pool tourney I ever played in with a top prize just short of 50K...not like I planned on winning...just going back to the situation aspect.

When I got beat there, I was so emotionally drained, I couldn't even be mad...I was confused if anything. But I'm still around and continue to try.

Keep up your good work and best of luck.

8:33 AM  
Blogger KrazyBangs said...

I'd be Happy to play MATH if it moves to FTP.

11:45 AM  
Blogger iamhoff said...

Damn, that is even more sick than some of the beats I've been taking lately. And I have been getting absolutely mauled on Stars lately. Much more so than a year ago, and much more bad beats than I see on Tilt.

Good luck getting your $$$ out of Stars. I did a post earlier this afternoon (Thursday) and ran down the list of eWallets that were still operating, and got called by a buddy around 9:00 and was told that several of the eWallets that I mentioned had announced that they were suspending US operations. Crazy stuff.

4:02 PM  
Blogger Pokerwolf said...

Hoy said:

And to be clear, I do not want to be the guy claiming that a poker site is rigged per se. I purposely stopped short of saying exactly that in my rant here.

Then why bring up the fact that, in your opinion, Pokerstars is the problem, Hoy?

Just because "it hasn't happened at Full Tilt" doesn't mean it *can't* happen there. What you're dealing with is a total donk who decided to give you a run for your money and flopped the nuts.

I'll also point out here that in your rant and in all of your comments you have not acknowledged nor addressed that you made a bad read. How can I say that? Easy.

Would you push with KK or QQ on that flop when you've been re-raised by someone in late position twice?

One more thing about your post I'll point out: Pokerstars owes you jack shit. It doesn't matter how much money you've brought them, rake you've provided or whatever. You're still going to use the same RNG and deal with the same idiotic players that everyone else does.

7:39 PM  
Blogger Chris said...

I'm one of those sneaky newbs to poker who's been browsing a selection of very good poker blogs (this one included) as I learn and skill up in the game that I now passionately love.

I had bad experiences with Stars, I'd lost $150 on cash games that seemed to just river me on nearly every hand. Anyway, I've been reading your blog and even thought that I might play in MATH once my game is good enough, so I showed this post to a poker newb friend of mine and I said: "I don't think this is chance", and he said: "Why not? I bet if you see enough hands that you'd see something like this..." and then I went on to post an epic dissertation that I'm afraid to post in here. Do you have e-mail hoyazo?

7:48 PM  
Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

Pokerwolf, you certainly have an interesting take on this hand. I welcome the comments.

First, nothing more needs to be said about the "rigged" comment other than to say that the fact of the matter is I did not say pokerstars is rigged, and I don't actually believe it is rigged. I've had far too much success there to believe the site is rigged, which is why I didn't say that in my post. You can claim that I insinuated whatever you want, but you can't make it true that I said something that I very much specifically did not say.

Secondly, of course I never said that pokerstars owes me anything -- which your comment insinuates that I did say. Good point though, that pokerstars clearly doesn't owe me anything. I wonder if there are people out there who really think any online poker site "owes" them anything. But I can point out that I've brought them a lot of money over time, and right now I don't feel like continuing that gravy train anymore, and that I'm in fact sad right now that I've brought them all this business after seeing what I saw the other night. Is it ok with you if I feel some regret over the business I've brought pokerstars over the past couple of years?

As far as your commentary about my making a bad read, that is truly a really funny thing for you to be focusing on in my view. Sure, if it makes you happy for me to point out that I made a bad read, then I'll try to give you what you want below. Let's review:

The guy raises 7.5x UTG preflop with 76s. Then he instacalls my reraise preflop for 36% of his stack. Am I supposed to put him on 76s at that point? Then he bets out 500 into an 1800 chip pot on the flop of 589 two-suited. Is that where I should have known he had flopped the stone nuts with 76s?

So what is the point of your mentioning that I made a bad read here, exactly? Factually speaking, this guy made a play that was so far beyond any norm that any player who's ever lived would make or recommend that others make, and then he hit the most recockulous flop in the history of millions of hands I've seen on various online poker sites. These are facts man, as in things that are just immutably true and neither you nor me nor anyone else reading this can make untrue.

I'm trying to envision a situation where I would, like you, insist on pointing out to someone else their "bad read" in a similar situation. So, say some guy raises you UTG preflop with what turns out to be 83o. You reraise big with your pocket Aces. He insta-calls for half his stack very early in a large buyin tournament. The flop comes 888. He pushes, you call, and promptly are drawing dead to flopped quads.

Did you make a "bad read"? Why even make that kind of a comment? The guy made the worst play imaginable, and the fact -- read that word there -- FACT -- is that if you managed to read this guy for holding 83o with the way he played this hand pre and post-flop, then you are a bona fide, official mf'ing poker schmuck. And I will comfortably say that no reasonable argument may be made against that point.

So yes, wolf, I freely admit it for all the world who reads here to see this: In a situation where only an absolute fucking schmuckass motherfucker idiotic fuckface dickwad loser jassack poker player would possibly make a good read on this guy's play, and where any intelligent, stable, reasonable, knowledgeable, rational, smart, successful poker player would make a bad read, I made a really, really bad read.

There you go, there's the only honest "bad read" admission I can make on this hand. Enjoy.

10:10 PM  
Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

Btw Christopher, you can reach me at sandlerm at gmail dot com.

10:15 PM  
Blogger Julius_Goat said...

Wow, that's a pretty awful beat from a pretty awful play, man.

I'm hurting, at it's not even my money.

I do find your opponent's play thoroughly, utterly and completely unbelievable.

Except . .

Have you SEEN the play since Party and Pacific shut down? I've seen so much play like that lately. That bad? I don't know. The amount of buyin makes it especially squirrely. But if I haven't seen it that bad, then close. Real close. On a regular basis.

I've seen it on Tilt, I've seen it on Stars (only two sites I play). Hands I've been involved in, hands I haven't. Small tournaments and SNGs, medium tournaments like the 18K or 25K guarentee. Two players make low pair and rush to get their chips in, and the high kicker of 7 wins it.

Rarely do I see these awful, awful plays pay off. But it does happen.

Yesterday, I put a turkey who'd raised every hand for two orbits all-in with pocket Jacks. He insta-called with K2. Offsuit.

He caught his King. And then talked smack. Screw him.

Usually I just shake my head in wonder. Will that kind of hand put me on tilt? Yep, for weeks. I don't know who wouldn't be tilted by that.

I think you have every right to rant.

I think you have every reason to be disgusted.

I even think you have the right to go on tilt.

You have every ounce of sympathy from me, but I doubt it's the site. Perhaps, but I doubt it. My respect for the average level of play is that low.

You're clearly a smart person. You know what you think, and you know why. Definitely stay away from Stars if you have lost your faith in their randomizer, but I honestly think you got snakebit by a guy who doesn't even know what he's doing.

They're everywhere.

11:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Poker Stars-manipulated
Full Tilt-manipulated

Or I guess you could use the word rigged.

11:37 PM  
Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

Goat -- all good points. Keep in mind too, the amount of the buyin for this tournament definitely is a major factor in my confusion and general discomfort with what happened in that hand on pokerstars the other night. I see stoopidass pushes on the flop with (literally) nothing all the frigging time during the first hour of many of the big mtts, even large-ish ones like the nightly 25k, 30k, etc. But in a $320 buyin tournament, on the third hand? I can even handle the recockulous play, I see utter uberdonks all over the online poker sites, and really at all levels. It was just the combination of that particular uberfishy play, with that particular ubercockulous flop, that just set me off.

F pokerstars!

12:19 AM  
Blogger Julius_Goat said...

I think satellites and transferrable T bucks play a factor here.

The question to ask yourself is: To what EXTENT can the amount of buyin effect the overall quality of play?

Think about the play you see in the $10K buy in WSOP Main Event.

For my part, I was lucky enough to satellite into the WCOOP Main Event last year. That's $2600 direct buy-in.

I saw insane play from the very first hand. Not as bad as what happened to you, true. But really crazy.

I myself played like a big ol donkey. I overvalued middle pair - middle pair! - and zapped a good chunk of my stack on a horrendous read. I can honestly say it was the worst played hand of the year for me.

That is to say, I am not sure how much the buy-in is a factor to play quality. I think percentage of dead money is noticably lower, but I still think it would be a highly visible portion of the pie chart.

12:34 AM  
Blogger Patch said...

Usually I just shake my head in wonder. Will that kind of hand put me on tilt? Yep, for weeks. I don't know who wouldn't be tilted by that.

If something like that puts you on tilt for weeks, you're in the wrong game. Idiots who make big raises and quick-call re-raises with total crap are the ones who put money in the pockets of good players. Sometimes they get lucky. If they didn't, they'd never come back. That's just the way poker is. If you can't deal with that without tilting for weeks, or even more than a few minutes, you should seriously think about spending your time doing something else.

I don't mean to sound overly hard about it. Maybe I've just heard too many bad beat stories. I do know for a fact that the donkies are going to get lucky sometimes, and getting all bent out of shape about it isn't going to do anything but have a negative effect on your game and possibly your health. It certainly isn't going to change the donkies.

1:58 AM  
Blogger Julius_Goat said...

If something like that puts you on tilt for weeks, you're in the wrong game.

Patch, I agree totally. I didn't mean my own personal bad beat story would have (or did) put me on tilt for weeks. That I shook off in the time it took to sign up for the next SNG.

I was referring to Hoy's 3rd hand, which is on the 9th ring of poker hell. Basically, if you don't tilt there (and I think Hoy has admitted he did), you have my admiration, you are a tough-minded player . . . but if you DO tilt, I totally understand.

In fact, for what it is worth, I give you license to tilt.

But the proper response seems to tilt seems to be to stay away, which is what Hoy is doing, albiet with great anger.

Anyway, long clarification because I never learned to write, and good point, Patch.

2:18 AM  
Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

And make no mistake, I tilted and tilted good after this hand happened. I tilted so hard that even though I somehow managed to outlast 17 or 18 other players in the Mookie later that night, and even to play in the Dookie some 90 minutes after that, I don't recall an effing thing that happened, or a single actual hand of play, in the entire night after the pokerstars screwage. That fugging sucked.

4:41 AM  
Blogger KajaPoker said...

Hoy Vey!

1. You said you would not be that mad if he turned over a made set on the flop. What about AK sooooted that hit on the turn or river? Would that make this easier to swallow?

2. There are so many situations you can think of that would make his play understandable:
a) Total Donkey (with big bankroll)
b) Total Tilt (he's had it with the beats and was playing any two hands)
c) Total Aggression (he plays every hand like this) - No joke, I played an MTT on Mansion the other night and one guy was all-in every hand and knocked out half my table within one orbit.

3. F PokerStars! I donked off my roll in the last MATH and in a couple of MTTs and was thinking of reloading - But now that the MATH is moving I am glad to be rid of that awful site.

4. I just know that this is a slight correction in your upwards progression. Let this downturn take its course. FTOPS is coming and I just know you are going to hit it big time.

11:43 AM  
Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

Kaja, again AKs wouldn't have bothered me nearly as much. Many people (myself included on occasion) will put a third of ther stack in early with AKs, and then it just becomes one of those math issues where he's going to hit his outs some small (but not that small) percentage of the time. That would be very understandable to me.

This guy, putting in all his money with 76s, and then flopping the silly nuts, I still can't really believe that whole thing happened. Makes no sense at all. AKs would make perfect sense, yknow?

7:06 PM  

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