Hot Hand #11 -- Blogger Razz (Part II)

What a great set of comments to my first ever Razz Hot Hand post. I truly appreciate everyone taking the time to post their thoughts on whether or not I should reraise or just flat call in this situation from the Mookie 2nd Chance Tournament (Turbo Razz) last week:



So here I am with the best possible starting hand in Razz, I've raised it up preflop, got a caller and then got reraised by the newly-engaged Love Elf. So I put the question to you all as to whether or not you advocate a reraise here on third street, or just a smooth call.

There were lots of great comments here. Mike and JJ both advocated the smooth call in this situation, for the simple fact that you just don't know yet how good this hand is going to get. Having only seen three cards so far, they argue, with a game like razz especially, this thing could still turn into a full house or quads or something before all is said and done, so why get too much money into the pot when you've only seen such a small portion of your ending hand? On this point, I do not agree as a general statement, though in many individual cases I think this ends up being good advice. IMO, as I have played lots of stud games for many many years, I have found that I absolutely, positively make more money by getting my money in when ahead, even before I have a made hand. Moreso than in a game like holdem, because in stud there are still 4 more cards to come after you see your first three and the betting begins, you are just never going to maximize your potential in any stud game if you are never willing to bet before you've got a made hand. This is not to say that I always, always bet every single time I am ahead through 3 or 4 cards in razz, but as a general rule I do not subscribe to the theory that says not to raise any time on 3rd street. There are plenty of situations where I will put in a raise, or even a re-raise, on 3rd street in razz, if the situation seems right.

In contract to the above position, many of the commenters to Part I of this Hot Hand post took the opposite approach, also logically defensible IMO, that since I know I am ahead here, I ought to automatically be looking to raise, raise, raise with reckless abandon. Jordan seemed to be the biggest proponent of this approach, and I'd like to discuss that for just a minute. Jordan commented that he would re-reraise here without a doubt, and keep raising as much as he could here given this set of circumstances. As Jordan explains in his comment:

"The raise here does nothing but get more money in the pot while you are ahead, which is optimal in Razz."

Jordan also goes on to ask in a later comment:
"Also, what is the upside to flat calling? Are you protecting yourself from losing more when you fall behind? Why? You are still ahead and there is no reason to be scared. Are you inducing more action later with deception? Why? Most players will be too focused on your board, so they'll be no deception if you proceed to hit a bunch of low cards, and likewise, none if you start to brick out."

Now I'm going to address these points, and this is where my personal strategy in razz may differ from many of yours, and from what I've read in a number of poker books that cover razz in any meaningful way. For me, I like the initial raise here since it gets more money into the pot when I know I'm ahead. I also have the lowest upcard showing, so my raise is very well disguised in a way, in that it gets more money into the pot, but it does not necessarily scream "I have a monster starting hand!" since I am the lowest upcard, and many players (myself included, usually) will put in a raise anytime they are the low up card on 3rd street in razz. That's the beauty of that initial raise to me, not so much the additional chips it adds, but rather the combination of the additional chips in the pot and the fact that it still does not betray too much about my hand.

See, I have made lots of profits in my razz game by hiding the ball a bit early on in the hand. Seriously, this has been generally one of my most profitable moves in all of razz. Sometimes when I am very strong to start, I like to not give away just how strong I am until later in the hand, when more cards are out, and the bets have doubled. In fact, I would say that any time I am giving away information to my opponents about more or less exactly what my upcards are, I am at a disadvantage, and that is a situation that I always try to avoid playing in this game whenever I can. For example, if 4 players call a raise on 3rd street with upcards between A and 8, and then I call with a King up, I am basically telling my opponents, beyond a shadow of a doubt if they are paying attention, that I have two very low cards underneath. I'm not calling a raise on 3rd street with (87)K. No way, no how. I'm not even calling that raise with (82)K. No way no how again. If I call a raise with a King showing on 3rd street, then everyone around that table should know I am sitting on A2, A3, 23, etc. underneath, and nothing much better than that. So, armed with that knowledge, if I go on to make three more good low cards on 4th, 5th and 6th streets, then my observant opponents should know to fold their hands. If my board comes (xx)K345 by 6th street, and I had called a raise on 3rd street with that King showing as my upcard, then I would fold to me any day of the week unless I was working on a smooth 7 low at worst, and maybe even a 6.

So, that's why I don't like to give away too much information about my specific hole cards early on in razz hands. If I re-reraise Tina here, then Tina and everyone else will have to know that I am sitting on two other very low cards to go with my 2 upcard. For only another 40 chips into the pot -- assuming maybe Budo will fold rather than having to call two bets cold -- I will be telegraphing to Tina more or less exactly what my hole cards are. And, in my experience, that telegraphing is worth far more to me than just one small bet on 3rd street.

For that reason, I elected to just smooth call Tina's raise here:



I didn't mind Budo joining in the hand either given my lack of a reraise, as his 6-up figures to be well behind what I'm holding right now, and the little bit of deception I get from not re-reraising Tina on 3rd street here can become very useful later in the hand. So, in general, that's my answer to Jordan's very good question above, asking what is the upside of just smooth calling here? To me, that answer is simple: I have already raised so I've gotten some more chips in the pot early on, and yet by just calling here, I've also allowed Tina (and Budo, should he decide to play) to convince herself that maybe I've got a 7 or 8 buried under there along with another lower card. Or, maybe I've got one great low card and one brick, like (AK)2, and I was making play on the strength of just my two very low cards to start with. By re-reraising, I am guaranteeing Tina and Budo that I have 3 very low cards, so if they see two more low cards hit my board, I'm going to lose them, and the opportunity to maybe make 3 or more big 80-chip bets from them, all because of the 40 chips I re-reraised with up front here on 3rd street. So while I respect and agree with Jordan's general feeling about raising when you know you're ahead in a game like razz, I flat out disagree with the automatic nature of Jordan's raising here. As with all forms of poker the way I play them, there are basically no "automatic" decisions, and this is just another example. I will raise a hand like this once -- for pot-building purposes and for thinning-the-field purposes, but generally do not see the benefit of one more 40-chip re-reraise here, which could easily end up costing me several hundred in chips on the later rounds if both of these players stay in. So, I smooth called here, opting not to give too much information, and maybe Tina is thinking I was just raising because of my lowest upcard and I really don't have anything. Who knows. And that's just the point -- now I've got more chips in the pot, and yet Tina and Budo don't really know what I'm holding now at all. Let's see how that ends up impacting this hand as it plays out.

So, on 4th street, I picked up a beautiful 5, giving me a 4th street board of (A3)25, while Budo picked up (xx)68 and Tina got (xx)49. With my 25 showing, and having already raised it up on 3rd street as it is, I went ahead and bet out again here for 40 more chips, the last of the small-bet rounds. And my bet was quickly called by both Budo and Tina, an outcome which I obviously loved at this point, given that I was holding A235, a draw to a wheel and was clearly well ahead of whatever my opponents were holding at the time. And, I know that at least some small part of both opponents' decision to call me was that I had not re-reraised it on 3rd street. If I had re-reraised it there, basically screaming out to my opponents that I had A23, A24 or something similar, are they going to call me with 8-low and 9-low hands showing, when I've just picked up a 5 to go along with my A23 or A24? Would you call there? I'll give you a hint -- generally speaking, if I know someone is working on a wheel on 4th street, and I have only a rough 8 or a 9 low working through 4th street, I am done. Finito. Maybe I call one more cheap bet on 4th just to see what happens and just to throw some money away, but I'm cognizant of the fact that I am doing just that. I'm throwing money away. Now if my opponent picks up any low card that is not an open pair, I have to figure I'm probably beat, even with an 87 or maybe even 86 low. Why put myself in that situation? That's why I'll usually fold in this scenario, and why many opponents will usually fold as well if I have 25 showing and also basically confirmed beyond a doubt for them with my actions on 3rd street that I am super-low underneath as well. So, in my book, my smooth call of Tina's reraise on 3rd street has already netted me at least 80 chips in calls from both Budo and Tina on 4th street, even despite me picking up yet another wheel card on 4th myself.

So I bet out the 40 chips on 4th street, and got called in both places:



This is where things get interesting in this hand. 5th street comes out, bringing me an unwelcome Jack for a board of (A3)25J, Budo picked up a King for (xx)68K, and Tina pulled a 9 for (xx)489. Now here, given that I know I projected a bit of weakness by only smooth calling Tina on 3rd street, and now I've picked up a Jack to go along with that projection of weakness from early in the hand, I am going to bet out here again for the big bet of 80 chips. Only I know I am still working on a wheel draw with just one brick through 5th street, but I also know that my opponents may have their doubts as to whether I might already have two bricks and be in a bit of trouble here. So, since I think I can get one or both players to call me, and since I have such a great draw with two cards to come, and since the bets are now bigger on 5th street, I want to make the pot bigger here and try to get as many chips in as I can while I still have such a great draw and two cards left to make it:



Budo calls me again as you can see above, and then Tina goes aggro once again, raising my action for the second time already in this hand:



Now what? Do I fold, since I have only a Jack low and Tina is likely working on a made 9-low at this point in the hand? Almost surely I need to hit a card now in order to beat Tina's hand, so is it worth it for at least one more big bet of 80 chips to draw in this situation? If yes, am I smooth calling here, and hoping to make my card on 6th street before re-evaluating my position and whether I can call another big bet on 6th street? Or, am I committed to taking this hand through 7th street at this point, just based on the size of my draw? What is the best approach for me given where things have progressed at this point in the hand?

Let me know your thoughts, I'll be back tomorrow with more of the goods.