Thursday, July 19, 2007

Too Early to Push? and a Little Non-Poker Rant

A blogger friend and I were chatting over the IM today and the following question was posed. As per usual I may get some of the details a bit wrong but the gist of the facts will be sufficiently accurate to make the point. I didn't have poker tracker set to record the hands I discuss in girly chat, so I'll have to go from memory here, and we all know how accurate that is about hand histories.

So, you're playing Midnight Madness on full tilt. For those of you who don't know, every night at midnight ET there is a $10 buyin mtt that often attracts well over 1000 players. I think of it as all the West Coast donks just logging on for the night at 9pm local time. Anyways, within the first 5 minutes you are dealt pocket 3s. You call an 8x preflop raise of several limpers and then have to fold to three overs on the flop. A few minutes later you pick up pocket Kings and raise, getting one caller, and an Ace flops. You go on to lose a small bet on the turn and another decent sized bet on the river to a guy holding a medium Ace. You are down to 860 chips from the starting stack of 1500, and the blinds have just increased to the 20-40 level about 12 minutes in to the Midnight Madness mtt.

Now you are dealt pocket 7s in the cutoff. The first few players fold, and someone in middle position bumps the 40-chip big blind up to 120, a standard open-raise for this table. Action folds to you in the cutoff with the pocket 7s. What do you do here? Call, Raise or Fold? Why? Is 120 out of your 860 stack so much that you might as well just push now? Or is it too early for a push yet, given stack size and time into the tournament? Can you just call and wait to see if you flop a set, overcards, or rather if an Ace or King flops and you can be pretty sure you're beat? Anybody consider folding in this spot? What's the best play here?

OK that's all for poker today, because I have been itching to say some things since I heard this disgusting bullshit on the radio about Michael Vick and the dog fighting business. Now let me begin by saying I am no kind of animal lover. I don't own a dog, I've never even had a pet in my entire life at any time, not even a hamster or a turtle or something when I was a kid. My daughter M has already made Hammer Wife and I promise that we will give her either a dog or a cat for her 9th birthday (she is 3), but I just wanted to get that out there, as of right now I've never had any pets in my entire life, I've never loved an animal in my life, so I'm not one of these PETA or ASPCA geeks or anything like that.

But that said, I do have respect for life. For life. I don't even know if I believe in God, but that right there is God's greatest miracle if such a thing exists. Life. And what Mike Vick and friends have allegedly been involved with down in Virginia is beyond low class. It's a complete disregard for life itself. Not human life, no, and that fact clearly should be weighed in the case against Vick resulting from the indictment handed down yesterday against him on dog-fighting charges. But it's flagrant disregard for life itself nonetheless. Seriously, for those of you who believe in heaven-if-you're-good-and-hell-if-you're-bad, wouldn't you just have to think that how much respect for life you showed has got to be a big part of that decision of where your soul will spend the rest of eternity? Now that's something I definitely do not believe in, but if you do and you're one of these guys Vick was engaged with on the dog-fighting thing, then I would be seriously preparing for a long eternity. And I mean a looooooooooooong one.

I'm listening to the details of the indictment on the radio on Wednesday night, and I could not believe what I was hearing, the actual stuff that actually goes on with these dog-fighting rings. Of course a lot of these dogs are killed during the dogfights themselves. More than that, even some of the winners end up having to be put down, just from the beating that they take in the ring. And meanwhile, Vick and crew are allegedly training them, breeding and raising them to be fighting dogs, and standing around screaming and cheering and betting largeish sums of money on the outcome of these fights. To the death. I mean, is this ancient Rome, or are we more fucking civilized than that today?

The worst part is what the indictment claims Vick and crew did to the dogs who lost fights or did not perform well but lived. Vick's crew allegedly killed them. Brutally. Coldly. But more than that. They killed these dogs sickly. One of the methods cited for killing off the "worthless" (non-fighting) dogs was death by electrocution. Electrocution? Who the fuck electrocutes a dog? A dog! How do you even electrocute a dog? What do you strap to it, where do you strap it? Is this for real? I mean, these guys must have had to really sit down and plan out how to electrocute a dog, how to build whatever contraption they must've used to get that thing pulled off. Am I wrong or is that fucking sick?

But that's only the first method of killing cited in the indictment. Other dogs were allegedly killed by Vick's crew by hanging. Hanging! A dog! Again I ask, who the fuck even thinks of shit like this? They hung and electrocuted fucking dogs that didn't kill other dogs as well as Vick and crew allegedly trained them to be. These guys lost money betting on these animals to maim and destroy their opponents, and when they lost the money, they took it out on the losing animals with sick torture that you just don't see every year. Forget every day. This shit it sick, once-annually style.

These guys also allegedly killed some of the losing dogs by drowning them. You can just imagine them throwing these animals in water somewhere and holding them down while they thrash around after unknowingly taking their last breaths. That is some sick shit. And the kicker to it all, a number of dogs were also killed by, and this is the way the indictment describes it, "slamming the dogs on the ground". Wow. I don't know the details but you just know they're gonna be throwing the dogs from windows n shit. Un fucking real. An NFL quarterback with all of life set up for him, doing this kind of sickass shit. It's honestly one of the most disgusting and despicable things I've ever heard coming out of a professional athlete, and the NFL has got to be just fucking sick about it.

What a man you are, Michael Vick. If you are truly guilty of being the ringleader of this dog fighting thing, I hope you go to fucking jail and I hope those people there take advantage of you like you have to these dogs you've bred for your sick, demented fucked up ways.

Thank you and goodnight. I fucked up the Mookie last night running overpair 99 into overpair KK on a ragflop, but Mike Maloney did not, taking it all down while last week's winner crazdgamer came up with another impressive 5th place finish. Tonight I hope to be back in the 50-50 and probably some more FTOPS satellites. And sorry to this chica whom I logged in this morning and saw ended up finishing 2nd out of 40-some players in last night's O8 FTOPS satellite, which sadly is winner take all as far as the FTOPS event seat goes. And oh yeah, to those of you in last night's Dookie, I think I made my point. I made the final table in the razz turbo event with what I think was a massive chiplead. And then I fell asleep. I woke up like 25 minutes later or whatever to about 5 IMs asking if I was asleep, and to find that I had just blinded out in 6th place. So thanks to everyone for pilfering those blinds, I hope you enjoyed them. Bastages, all of you.

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Blogger Astin said...


Any re-raise of significance hurts if you it doesn't commit you. A min-raise is the same as calling in this case.

If the board is scary, fold. If it's REALLY scary, steal it on the flop if any weakness is shown. If it hits you hard (uncoordinated set? 7's full of something lower?), slowplay.

If you fold on the flop with 120 out of your stack, you've still got 11 minutes with an M around 10. Loads of time to make something happen. No need to push and risk your tournament life 12 minutes into the madness.

11:53 PM  
Blogger Alan aka RecessRampage said...

I agree with everything you said about Vick. He's got no class. Hell, his whole family has no class. I love seeing how all this is coming back to Vick considering I hated him ever since he came into the NFL with all the bullshit hype. It appears that the NFL will not be taking action until the legal process goes through... and that appears to be after the season ends. So, I hope there are tons of dog loving linebackers out there, trying to hurt Vick. And I mean HURT him. Go for his knees. Tear it up. Slam his head into the turf for a concussion or ten. I hope Vick dies a nasty death. Like tie him up and toss him into a pit full of pitbulls. Wait, did you say you respect life? For me, I guess it depends. Vick losing his will not hurt me in the least bit.

12:34 AM  
Blogger 4dbirds said...

I'm with you, I hope Michael Vick goes to jail. Oh and some of the most callous attitudes toward animals come from 'religious' folks who think they have dominion over them. Spend some time in Amish country to see what I mean.

12:39 AM  
Blogger Eric a.k.a. Bone Daddy said...

12:15 a.m. e.s.t. $10 buy in. sounds like a jam to me.

Acutally, its a good question. throw out the buy in and my need for sleep at that time, I hate risking my tourniment life in the first hour on a crappy mid-pair. I didn't do the math, but you are calling off about 15% of you stack for 15% chance of making a set.

So I can see a call/flop fold kinda play, but I would prefer the RR for about 1/2 my stack to repesent a big pair and drive out kq, ace crap kinda hands.

So I'd call about 30%, RR 60,and jam the 10% of the time its past my bed time.

1:16 AM  
Blogger Irongirl01 said...

They should take the dogfighting ringleaders (Vick included) and place them in a pit naked. Then allow them to be mauled by the dogs they have trained preferably targeting their naughty bits.

Automatic banishment from the NFL he is no role model he is a disgrace.

Im sending an email to Nike who endorses Sick Vick

1:31 AM  
Blogger HighOnPoker said...

I had actually heard the hand before via email and this was my response:

If there was room for improvement, its definitely in this hand. [We discussed a few hands]. You still have about 30x the BB, so you are not yet in the danger zone. Facing a raise from EP, it doesn't make a lot of sense to push with 77 (although I've done it more than once). You happen to get called by a player in the blinds with AA and not the original raiser, so maybe there is something I don't know. If the raiser was a loose, raising donkey who folds to aggressive re-raises, then its not a bad play to try to pick up probably around 25% of your stack. However, there were still 2 players left to act and an additional 2 players who had acted (the limper and raiser) who could also call your all-in. A quick math principle I learned from Phil Gordon (I think), is that with 4 players left to act and 7 pocket pairs higher than yours, the chance of someone having a higher pocket pair is (4*7)/2, or 14%. That's not terribly high (although it should be adjusted upward because of the raiser's increased likelihood), so I guess this play isn't so bad after all. However, the other possibility is that you will be called by overcards like AK. Then you are racing. The long and short of it is that this is a very tricky hand. If you flat call (set farm), you are probably making the wrong play because you won't get enough value for your set given the gamble that you won't hit the set. But let's say you called and the BB raises big. Do you call then, effectively putting yourself all-in? I dunno. So, in total, with all this analysis, I think the right play is to fold preflop. You don't have enough chips to set farm and make it worthwhile. Otherwise, you are hoping for a cointoss and worrying about being dominated. Mind you, I probably wouldn't have folded in the heat of the moment, but analyzing it now, I think folding was the right move.

1:38 AM  
Blogger KajaPoker said...

With 7s I fold and wait for a better time to push. If this is a LAG I shove on top but usually this early I won't have a read.

So why is it bad to have dogs fight in a ring and bet on the outcome but it's ok for two men to step into an octagon and try to kill each other?

I hope Vick goes away for a long time. I hope the send a message to all these fucking "pro" athletes who have it soooo good and think they above the law. Is it something in the water in Atlanta? First Benoit and now Vick?

2:35 AM  
Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

Kaja, to be clear (and I am no fan of boxing), at least in the boxing / UFC context both participants have a brain and free will and could choose to either be in the ring or not. But with the dogs these animals are bred to do this, and are realistically not given a choice to avoid this life.

I'm also pretty sure (I'll have to check this with Max Kellerman next time I run into him) that the losing boxers / UFC fighters are not ritually murdered in tortuous, sadistic ways by the people who lost money betting on them.

2:50 AM  
Blogger Littleacornman said...

Never heard of this Vick guy but from reading your post I hope something really fuckin' nasty happens to him.

3:14 AM  
Blogger Island Bum said...

Lots of talk on Vick on the radio here in Atlanta of course but the one thing I agree with is that when a profile celeb is even allgedly involved in such horrible thing with animals and children, it is over. The public preception has sealed it no matter the outcome. Especially when other events have led up to this biggie.

He supposedly had a "Mysterious" dark substance either in or affixed under the label of a water bottle at Miami Airport trying to get through security. There goes the thinking that when no one can get through security with bottled anything and have to trash it, he figures 'Hey I am Michael Vick and it dont apply to me". Busted, searched and even though it supposedly seemed it was nothing after investigation, you know the public preception was "Yeah, Right"

He warmly saluted his home town fans here in Atlanta during a game with the one finger salute. Yeah, real nice Jackass.

And just the fact he is even associated with these lowlifes in this horrible thing and since indicted there has to be enough creedence to do so, it nailing the coffin shut on his life and career and before they shut it, they should treat him as the dogs were treated. I think they can fill the Georgia Dome for that.

Definition of extreme stupidity: the opprotunity to have a set life in something that someone would do almost anything to achieve and respect and then piss it away on such things. Just a waste.

5:40 AM  
Blogger Francase said...

I'm hoping he's suspended for the season and the Falcons cut him.

Somehow, I'm doubtful.

Too bad there aren't more on the Falcons like Warrick Dunn who helps build houses in the offseason.

Then again, we pay more attention to UGA and Tech anyway.

1:02 PM  
Blogger Poker Brian said...

Hoy to answer your question about how they killed the dogs, and this is very disturbing, they wet the dogs down with hoses then proceed to tazer them. I shat you not.

Not to mention the other various ways they said they killed dogs, gunshots to the head, drowned in bathtubs, or hanged. Not that the other methods are any less cruel but it takes some major fing cajones to hang a dog, HANG a fing dog!

Like you I'm not really a dog lover ( i do have 2 because my gf loves them) but any person that does this to animals is just a sick sick individual.

8:23 PM  
Blogger WildDuces234 said...

77' yea, if Im in a big MMT that will have antes soon. I call it quits and push with any pair on an un opened pot. the blinds are important enough that it justifies the risk. (Low level buy in's only).

MV- sick dude. Boxing can not be compaired to this at all. (some one compaired it to that on a diff. media as well) You have rules, and refs in boxing, and professionals looking after your well being.

8:29 PM  
Blogger minty said...

I know it sounds cliche' to say "innocent until proven guilty", but I sincerely believe that and won't judge Vick until the gavel drops. Therefore I feel it would be wrong for the Falcons or the NFL to suspend him during this period.

However, I am a dog lover (my beagle is my baby), and if he is found guilty (which is likely since I guess the feds don't indict unless they really have the goods), then I hope he gets the maximimum penalty.

Anyone who could commit such acts has no purpose walking the streets.

11:30 PM  
Blogger Alan aka RecessRampage said...

Jim Rome made an interesting point... Isn't this how all the big names started? The big names that you've heard of when you watch the show about serial killers. You know, set something on fire, kill small animals, etc. So true. I mean his brother is stupid enough to wave a gun at McDonald's. And obviously the apple doesn't fall to far from the tree.

And I love the idiots that call in to make it sound like this is a race issue. Like he's being set up because he's black. Some people just can't help but play that race card. Dude, it's because he's a high profile guy and he allegedly committed a sick act that he's getting the publicity. Not because he's black. If it were a race issue, Al and Jesse would've been all over it. What a joke.

12:25 AM  

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