Friday, April 04, 2008

Keeping It Real With the BBT3

What I'm going to write about today may sound funny to some of you. Some of you may have the baseball cap shocked right off your head. Others may fall over in their chairs. If you've been out there reading some the poker blogs like I do, then you may find what I have to say today to be very "out there" or at least "contrarian". But Ima gonna say it anyways. So here goes:

Since the BBT3 began, I am generally happy with the level of dirty chatting in our private tournaments, and I think the players as a rule are playing better in all the games.

There. I said it.

Let's take those two statements in reverse order, because I think the second point is a much quicker discussion. I haven't seen or read this anywhere over the past month or so, but since the BBT3 kicked in and with both the Skill Series and the Riverchasers playing weekly or at least bi-weekly versions of non-holdem poker tournaments, the play in those events has gotten better. I was one of the loudest voices on the intertubes a couple of months back about how god awful most of the play in, say, the Omaha events in Riverchasers and early in the Skill Series were. I remember entire posts -- tens of them at least from all around the poker blogiverse -- detailing the truly laughable starting cards and the uncommonly terrible hands being played all through these events. It was a minefield the likes of which haven't been seen since the last time Trip ran one of his Blogger Luck Games.

But with the past couple RC and Skills Omaha events, I have still seen the usual donkery, but not that uncommon donkery that was so omnipresent early on. So, don't get me wrong, we are all still bloggers playing these games and that means the donkery is copious and eternal. But it is noticeably not as much donkery as there was a little while ago. And that my friends is Good Thing #1 to come out of the BBT3. People are certainly taking the nlh tournaments more seriously and we are seeing -- in general (leaving out donkeycalling my allin on the flop with just AJo unimproved and then sucking the 6-outer at the river to bust me from RC last night) -- slightly better poker being played early and late in those events as well. But in the non-holdem games, the RC and the Skills Series have really contributed to what is to me a noticeable -- albeit not huge -- increase in the overall skill level in these other games. And all "don't tap the glass" people aside, I think that is a great and really cool thing that our little online poker tournament series can create in a group of people like this.

But now on to the more-talked-about topic today -- the alleged dirty chatting going on in many of these events. I'm not going to link to all the bloggers who have been writing about this stuff lately. They're the old schoolers, the Guys You Already Read Every Day Anyways. I don't need to link to it, you know if you read a lot of blogs that it seems like right now everybody is complaining about people being assholes in the chatboxes of several of the more recent BBT events. I've been following along with this story with some interest, mostly because deep down, and if you've read here for a while then you already know this, but deep down I really can't stand the dirty chatting either. I mean, what's the point? I've written about it many times, but while I can forgive almost anyone almost any transgression in a particularly tilty moment at a public table with people you don't know at all and likely will never see or hear from agaain, I simply cannot get how people would join in our community's games and then be raging assholes in the chat. It's lame, I've said it before, I've said it so many times that there's nothing more for me to even say about it. You all know my position. I argue that I tilt harder than any of you clowns and yet when was the last time any of you saw me type anything derogatory to anyone in the chatbox of one of our private games? Exactly. I don't. And I won't. So all of this is just a long way of saying, I am no fan of the dirty chatting. I really can't stand when people write things in our private tournament chats that are rude, crude and designed to hurt or embarrass other people, things that are above and beyond the normal table ribbing present at many tables comprised of guys who largely know each other.

But that's just the thing: I'm not seeing much of that here. I keep reading blog post after blog post after blog post about what assholes the guys were in chat the night before at the latest MATH or whatever. But I was there, and I somehow didn't see anything that rubbed me the wrong way? How can that be, I've been wondering. But in the past few days as I have been seeking some clarity on the subject, it has suddenly become more clear as a few of the people making these claims have let me in on the actual language that was offensive to them. And you know what? Most of it just isn't that bad. I mean, I think all the Booooooooooms! are stupid too, we all do. I wasn't the one who started that gheyness, and I'm not the one continuing it now. But do I really care? No. Why would I? That is now an example of chatting that is so out of bounds that it gets talked about on blogs for its rudeness? Rudeness? Come on guys. I bet my sets on the flop because I am a Man. Are you Women? Let me get this straight. You are a poker blogger and here you are letting a random blogger get that much under your skin because of a few Booooooooooooooms! in the chatbox? When did we as a group lose our collective testes? People suckout-eliminate someone and then call it out in the chat with an lol about their play afterwards, and guys have their panties all in a twist about it?

Come on everyone. I'm thinking back to when I was writing about the dirty chatting problem last around the end of the BBT2. At that point there had been a couple of raging flame wars in the chatbox during our tournaments, ones where people were calling each other stoopid names, launching personal insult after personal insult, and doing so in a very public forum for a bunch of players and observers who know you watching and listening. And laughing most of all, at everyone who engages in such silliness in this kind of a forum. People were getting genuinely embarrassed, and hurt, and then they'd be on their blogs the next morning in a bitchy mood because of what got said about them last night in the chatbox once things started to escalate and no one had a penis large enough to just stop it.

Now I'm looking at the chatboxes today, with bloggers complaining left and right once again about the chatbox shenanigans, and I'm just seeing a bunch of BOOOooooooooooms!, a few little barbs that are no different from what is said all the time at any poker table in the world, certainly one where the players largely know each other, and of course a couple of comments I would consider inappropriate spiced in here or there. But please guys. Try your hardest to look at what you are claiming was inappropriate chat from an outside observer. If your friends would call you a raging pussy for complaining about what you are complaining about, maybe it's time to turn the lens inward for a minute and try to reset things. It's ok to suck out on someone and then type in "haha" at them. I'm not saying you have to love that, but is that really the type of chat that anyone needs to spend their time thinking about? It's just a game, an $11 game most of the time at that, one largely between friends or at least many common acquaintances, and none of you should be getting anywhere close to this worked up about that kind of comment.

And don't get me wrong, again -- I really can't stand the dirty chatting in these events, and I know it has happened even in the BBT3 from time to time, and I do not support that stuff in any way as my readers know. But for the most part? I'm almost proud of the bloggers as a group for how well we have handled ourselves in the BBT3. I have surely not stuck around to watch every final table, but I've seen more of them than you probably think and I am just lost as to why all the complaining from people about what is being said in the chat being rude, mean or just plain inappropriate.

And I'm not the only one who thinks this, not by a longshot. Several bloggers have had similar conversations with me over the past few weeks as these kinds of posts about the chatbox have been popping up all over the place. Just within the past couple of days I have been having a very interesting conversation with a fellow blogger over girly and email about this very phenomenon where everyone is complaining about the BBT3 chat and yet not many people seem to think there is actually a big chat problem this time around. We've both been struggling trying to figure out why some people seem to be so over-sensitive about it just now. And in the course of exchanging our thoughts on the matter, this person hit it to me pretty much right on the nose as far as the reasons behind this seeming over-sensitivity. Here is what this blogger had to say as to the likely reasons for this, which I reproduce here pretty much verbatim (with permission of course):

"I suspect it is twofold:

1) There actually are some bastards out there, who deserve to be ignored. I don't doubt it, and you've seen that happen too. I've seen it myself. But I haven't seen it at the tables I've been sitting at for weeks and weeks.

2) I think now we've swung too far in reaction to it, and now it's become an overly-sensitized situation. To call somebody out for the chat below [saying "I knew the suckout card was coming" right after sucking out on someone for a big pot] is strange. If Daddy or somebody had said it, it would be hilarious, right? Or at least just fine. When I type "all skill" after getting my money in as an 8% dog and then suck out, I clearly don't think I played skillfully. It's just playful.

I'm certainly not pro abusive chat. That stuff sucks. And I'm also not anti "A lister", which I guess is the new facetious term for "old timer", which I guess is what we mean when we talk about "2003". The ones I've had contact with are just fine to awesome. I think there's some people who have just seen a scene that used to be nice and cozy blow up, which makes it no longer nice and cozy, and they want it to be like it was. But ain't nothing that is like it was. Even what was wasn't the way it was, if you know what I mean. Rose colored glasses are common.

There were asshats back then too I am sure. They're not around now. Why? They were asshats. No staying power with those types. The ones that came in with the later "generation" will be gone soon enough.

The next wave of bloggers will bring their own, and they'll bother me a lot I bet. Maybe I'll be writing posts about how blogging is going to hell in a handbasket in 2011.

So it goes."

Well said, Mr(s). Anonymous Blogger. Think about it.

Have a good weekend everyone. Don't forget the Donkament in its regularly scheduled time tonight at 9pm ET on full tilt. It's not a part of the BBT3 tournament series, but it is a $1 rebuy redonkufest the likes of which have not been seen since -- well -- the last Donkament, and it's always a good time. As usual I never really know if I will be online on a Friday at 9pm ET like that (password as always is "donkarama"), but those of you who play know that I usually tend to show up for my weekly penance therapy. Maybe I will see you all then.

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Blogger lightning36 said...

I must be sitting at the polite tables because most of what I have seen has not been offensive. It does get kind of tiring to see "BOOOOM" so many times -- but maybe that is because Full Tilt seems to reward the underdog so often.

A blogger was called an idiot by someone last night, however, which I think is really unnecessary.

11:08 PM  
Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

Lightning, it appears that your sentiment is shared by many out there, myself included, which was the reason for my post.

And I'm not a huge fan of calling others "idiot", but that being done one time and then gone is not even something I would personally think about for more than a second or two. As I mentioned in my post, what has particularly bothered me have been the complete breakdowns where people launch personal and embarrassing insults at each other over a 30-minute timespan or more right in front of all of us in the chatbox. I'm just not seeing that stuff here for the most part.

11:10 PM  
Blogger BigPirate said...

Name calling amongst friends is always acceptable. Some take offense when someone one may not know as well says something arguably rude. I am generally anti-negative comment on anyone's play. It always smacks me as a form of bullying which is a sore spot for me. I was never a bullied kid (being a gorilla took care of most of that) but I always felt bad when I saw kids do it to others in our class. Most times, I took care of it in one fashion or another. Hey, only I am allowed to pick on my friends, right? Today, it just seems juvenile and mean spirited. One of the benefits of playing in an insular group (and on the internet 200 can be insular) is the ability to speak and act freely in an impolite but joking way. Still juvenile, but not meanly. Calling someone a donkey in a blogger event is far different from doing so in the real world.

We do all need to toughen up a bit though. After all, it's only words in a chat box. Those that abuse the group or individuals will eventually drop out. The sooner the targets become harder, the sooner the departure or, hopefully, integration.

Once, when I made a stupid play and sucked out on IAK, I typed in something along the lines of a boastful insult. Of course I was semi-drunk at the time, but he and I had communicated a few times via e-mail and I knew he would not take offense. He responded with "I hope you get eaten by Pirate Ninjas," which I thought was fantastic. Someone else at the table said something about my comment as they did not get the context in which it was meant. The internet is a dangerous place for sarcasm and nuance.

All that being said, I was very happy Tuesday night to find myself seated between two of the most gentlemanly players out there, lighting36 and On_THG. I like playing against those guys and if they want to call me a donkey, I know where it is coming from.

12:55 AM  
Blogger Fuel55 said...

You forgot to call me an asshat for this:

hoyazo raises to 420 from button
Fuel55 re raises to 1,380 from SB with [Jh Ah]
hoyazo calls 960

*** FLOP *** [Kh 7d Kd]
Fuel55 bets 2,880
hoyazo raises to 3,436, and is all in
Fuel55 calls 556
hoyazo shows [7c Tc]
Fuel55 shows [Jh Ah]
*** TURN *** [Kh 7d Kd] [8d]
*** RIVER *** [Kh 7d Kd 8d] [Jc]
hoyazo shows two pair, Kings and Sevens
Fuel55 shows two pair, Kings and Jacks
Fuel55 wins the pot (9,752) with two pair, Kings and Jacks
hoyazo stands up

As to th chatter - if you can't take it turn off your fawkin chat and quit fawking whining for god's sakes. Anyone with a brain knows that it all in fun and that we all kiss and make up the next day.

(well except for me and Bayne who are stuck in a vicious Flame War as i write this)

12:56 AM  
Blogger Irongirl01 said...

The eskimos have a gazillion words for snow. I think in the poker blogosphere BOOM has different definitions too. First I never say Boom after a hand I won. Usually a railbird says it in context with a hand Im involved in. I mean its Ghey to say BOOM about a hand you played poorly or correctly

So here is my BOOM theories:

--It can mean you sucked out
--It can mean you won a hand as a favorite it held up and you are back in the hunt (you needed it atta girl or boy)
--And Boom can just mean YEAH BABY, nice hand.

As for bad play. I saw Dario Minieri in the Sunday Million raise get repopped all in and he called (he was chip leader or near there).. repopper AK, Dario A5.. yes he catches a 5 for the suckout....

He types in chat.... I am so horrible or I am so bad.. (this was the day he won the 5200 freezeout, the $100 rebuy and went deep in the said million). Maybe we should just confess our donkiness in chat. I mean really people can play any two cards any way they want.

1:32 AM  
Blogger Riggstad said...

I too am one that does not see the abusive chat at all. I don't get it. What I do see is just fun and games for me. I begrudge no one any action they choose to take during any game.

Of course I might get hot, and dumbfounded, or even just surprised, but it doesn't make me think any more or less of any certain player

Even Al has spewed a sentence or two when he loses a big hand to a somewhat questionable call, but of course its always in jest and not meant to harm.. at all

As far as the BOOOOOOOOOOMS...

I mean c'mon people. Its not to antagonize the loser or losing hand. Its meant, from my perspective at least, as a cheer for the winner.

Its a fun and happy thing. and if you notice, it has nothing to do with sucking out either. just as many BOOM's get typed out when the best hand going in wins as well.

I think the gheyest thing is complaining, or pointing out someone elses bad play when the complainer had made, or makes a similar play just as often.

Which I see quite frequently I might add.

Folks need to get over themselves, and understand what the BBT challenges are for. And that is to provide something a little (reads a lot) more valuable to a community of people as payback for their loyalty to the site they play on, the community with which they belong, and the overall support of the community as a whole.

And let me say this...

Without the A listers starting and welcoming everyone into this comunity, the BBT wouldn't exist as it does today.

Without the B listers trudging along, inviting friends, poviding content and "getting" the word out to readers about it the BBT wouldn't exapand as it has today

And without the C listers and new bloggers, blogging, and telling friends, and bringing in the shear numbers of players, the BBT wouldnt offer the prizes we have today.

So everyone, at every level has added some value to what we are able to partake in. Who's better? Who's more valuable?

We'll let the posts argue that!


fuckers! :)

1:33 AM  
Blogger Eric a.k.a. Bone Daddy said...

better play? you are drinking more than you realize during these events then.

2:18 AM  
Blogger heffmike said...

ah, but see, Fuel, that would not be as crushing without this first - at least I know Hoy doesn't have the virtual nutz everytime he shoves on these paired boards...

hoyazo raises to 120 from the SB
heffmike raises to 360 from the BB with [Kc Kd]
hoyazo calls 240
*** FLOP *** [3s 5h 3c]
hoyazo checks
heffmike bets 720
hoyazo has 15 seconds left to act
hoyazo raises to 2,470, and is all in
heffmike calls 1,750
hoyazo shows [Ad 3d]
heffmike shows [Kc Kd]
*** TURN *** [3s 5h 3c] [6d]
*** RIVER *** [3s 5h 3c 6d] [9c]
hoyazo shows three of a kind, Threes
heffmike shows two pair, Kings and Threes
hoyazo wins the pot (5,660) with three of a kind, Threes
The blinds are now 25/50

I've been lippy before when in a bad mood, but for the most part now I just don't bother, unless I'm working on my rapier wit (I remember making Donkette chuckle during Razz last week) - and it's never, ever personal.

It doesn't really matter what any of us think about each other at the tables anyway. I have started turning off observer chat, though, because seeing five BOOOMS! on every allin gets old...

Honestly, I haven't noticed any egregious chat at the tables recently... So, either I've missed the silly stuff, or people are a little over-sensitive.

You all can call me whatever you want, though. I have a hard time taking any internet chat seriously. Probably the best way to approach it.

2:23 AM  
Blogger $mokkee said...

i've missed several of the events over the last coupla weeks so i haven't had the opportunity to witness any doooshbaggery 1st hand.

but, i will say this. most of the crowd is playing for way more money than they ever have before. we're taking stabs at a 12k package, or more if you happen to cash in the biggest poker lottery in the world. people are gonna get a little upset when they play well and take it in the nads.

just shrug it off and continue playing the best you can. it's really that simple.

ez for me to say tho cuz i already won a seat into the TOC.



2:32 AM  
Blogger BadBlood said...

My .02:

I haven't played in many of the BBT events mainly due to time constraints. However, even during the times I've been playing with strangers during ring games, etc., I've turned chat completely off.

And it feels quite liberating. For whatever reason, ANY chat, even between two OTHER players, gets me off my game. It takes mental energy away from me and reduces my ability to play the best poker I can.

I'm not sure why that is, but it is.

Reducing my opponents to pure poker playing avatars with no shred of humanity behind them has done wonders for my game. It's more pure for me. I play more like a machine and my decisions have not been influenced by what somewhat may have typed in chat.

Just my perspective.

In another regard, I'm always amazed that some people have no problem typing things to people they'd NEVER say to someone at a live poker table.

2:55 AM  
Blogger Loretta8 said...

Fuel: "if you can't take it turn off your fawkin chat and quit fawking whining for god's sakes."

this sums it up

3:23 AM  
Blogger Wwonka said...

Last night in last nights Riverchasers.

lucko21: ur so bad

surflexus: K 7 is the NutZ

lucko21: i was ahead of ur bottom paior

Surflexus: was is the key word
lucko21: do u ever wonder why you do so bad?

lucko21: its comical how bad the play is
wwonka69: its also comical that you seem so vocal about

peacecorn: ya'll are joking around, right?
wwonka69: but if you dont enjoy playing with this group then dont play, instead of just complaining.

Its this kind of crap that annoys me. Lucko is a good player yet feels the need to Bitch cause he lost a hand. Fine bitch but to start ragging on someone is just uncalled for.

Toughen up you say. I say learn som fucking class at the tables.
Just cause some asshat jumps around on tv doesn't make it acceptable behavior.

3:30 AM  
Blogger Alan aka RecessRampage said...

I'm still convinced there's gonna be a blogger war soon. LOL

4:31 AM  
Blogger Daddy said...

I'm not sure if the use of my name (thanks for the link, by the way, as I'm always looking for increased traffic) was an implication of sorts, or if it was just a general shout to the fact that I'm just fucking hilarious.

I'd like to assume the latter, especially given that fact that I think that anyone who is so completely overwhelmed by "negative" poker chat really shouldn't be playing anyway. Get over it, folks. Good fucking lord.

I think there needs to be a mass thickening of skin.

Anyone who wastes more than five minutes of their lives contemplating the evils of BOOOOOOOOM, could've spent that time masturbating.
With or without a twice baked potato.

Poker is gay.
Blogging is gay.
Poker blogging is way gay.

7:46 AM  
Blogger Julius_Goat said...

Whatever the implication, Daddy is hilarious.

8:03 PM  
Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

Daddy, obv. no implication about your own chatting, which is "dirty" in a fun as shit sense but I've never seen you even be close to a dick to anybody, ever. You are just the quintissential example of what would have been considered funny if it came from you. No doubt about it.

7:38 AM  
Blogger CarmenSinCity said...

Hi hoy!

Are we going to see you out here in the sumemr????

12:18 AM  

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