Friday, April 18, 2008

Live Poker Radio, and BBT Chops

I had a fun time on Live Poker Radio last night with IT. It was totally unplanned, but IT hit me on the girly shortly before the Riverchasers started, and since there were some topical things to discuss I got on air and we just jumped right in to it. I was very pleased with the entire convo that I had on air and frankly had a really fun time doing it all as I always seem to. When IT tried to start talking about American Idol contestants, I just sidestepped that whole thing and drove the conversation right back to Poker where it belongs. When we discussed some of the controversial issues of the day, it seems like IT and I were in some disagreement over the details. But that's ok with me, I made my point and he made his, and we moved on.

The whole issue on chopping in the BBT is kind of a non-issue to me. As I said on air last night, it is obvious from some of the specific language used by some of the haters detractors that those people are not aware that chopping in the BBT is already standard accepted practice. To read some of these posts and comments, you would think that I, Hoyazo, have single handedly ruined poker bloggery and turned it into the drivel that it has become today, all by accepting a chop offered to me from a guy who could not play in the BBT3 Tournament of Champions anyways earlier this week. Of course those of us who have actually been involved at the end of some of these large-field BBT events know that chops have been discussed on several occasions, and they have even been agreed to more than once already, even in just the BBT2 and the BBT3 which were focused on a challenge-end Tournament of Champions. Heck, there was already a seat chop earlier in the BBT3, not some 3 or 4 weeks ago! And if memory serves, the same thing happened once or twice in the BBT2 as well.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not so naive as to be arguing that just because someone else did it in the past, that automatically means chops are awesome. I'm not saying that, and I don't even think it. But what I am saying is that, when this guy offered me the chop the other night, I accepted it without really thinking about the legitimacy of chopping up for a seat, because it's already been done on a couple of occasions in the last two BBT challenges. As I mentioned, it was done 3 or 4 weeks ago in the BBT3 for crying out loud. So to act like I have somehow done something to bloggers, to blogging, to Poker, whatever, merely by accepting another guy's offer for a chop at the end of a BBT tournament that we both expected me to win anyways, is the equivalent of you making trouble.

The biggest point I made on the radio last night was this. In the BBT3, the very people who have most vocally complained about what the BBT has done to the blogging community, have suddenly become the people doing the complaining that are threatening to ruin the spirit of our games. The same people who have posted numerous times on their blog about how the fun and jovial spirit of our private games has been sapped away with the growth of the group and the competition within it, now those are inexplicably the same people arguing that we must never allow a chop at the end of one of our BBT tournaments? Now our BBT events are too serious to even discuss a chop?

But I thought it was all about the friendships, and not taking things too seriously? I thought it was just a game, just an amicable poker game among friends? That people should not be taking these things so seriously, right? That it's not supposed to be all about winning and who played better than who. Right?

But now the notion of two of those amicable friends ever being able to chop at the end of a BBT tournament is worthy of words like "despicable" and "shameful"?

One thing is clear. Some people have clearly lost their way and are completely missing the spirit of the BBT and the private blogger tournaments. I guess the exact identity of those people we can disagree on.

Have a great weekend everyone. Don't forget to come by and donk it up tonight in the latest installment of Kat's donkament, the $1 rebuy extravaganza every Friday night at 9pm ET on full tilt. Password as always is "donkarama". As usual I'm not sure if I will be there. Yeah right.

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Blogger aniguy said...

As always, well thought out and written.

Thanks for all you provide as an upstanding citizen, either in the "real" world or virtual.

1:03 AM  
Blogger Eric a.k.a. Bone Daddy said...

I really have no opinion on the matter, but I do recall Al making a final table statement during the BBT2, "no chops no deals for the toc seat".

that being said, that was the only time i ever saw it posted. There were no offical "rules to the BBT" and if there were, well, god save the queen there would be a ton of bitching and monday mornin quarterbacking.

1:26 AM  
Blogger BWoP said...

Very much agreed, Hoy.

1:27 AM  
Blogger Schaubs said...

My only contention with your whole theory is the fact that Jefferson could have sold his seat instead. IT even asked you this question last night and I didn't really catch what your response was...

He (your opponent) could have easily just said nothing (if he had thought that far ahead), tried to win the seat (which you say you would have won anyway) and then if he did win, have someone else play for him instead (last minute), OR sell the seat to someone who actually can play on that date, and CAN go to the WSOP (which is what I am hoping the winner will do, and should do IMO).

The are ways to accomplish this, but I understand that ethically it was probably better in his mind to just give it to you instead for a few extra bucks ($64 I think?).

I also don't understand why he would sign up for the tournament, make it all the way through the mine field and down to HU, and then just pack it in and say "it's yours."

Even if there were only (literally) 7 big bets left each... who cares... you come that far, get lucky, probably suckout (which is necessary at some point in these things) once or twice and then just chop... with a guy who we all respect and expect to win a seat anyway...

Go win another one. That'll show'em.

Oh and FWIW, I doubt I will win one either... agreed.

As far as LJ winning one - we have motivated her even further now...

2:47 AM  
Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

Schaubs, my response to IT's question is that I don't even come close to thinking it is appropriate for someone to just "sell" their ToC seat. That is redonkulous and I think it would not be permitted.

Chopping up with a player who has made it to heads-up with you in a tournament and who has the chip lead over you is so essentially different from just selling your ToC seat to a random person, it is barely even worth continuing the conversation in my book. I think that's what I told IT last night as I recall. I guess what I'm saying is, I think that that is a really poor analogy to use if one is trying to argue against the chop.

In any event, if I get down to heads-up again in another BBT3 tournament, get ready for some fireworks.

3:46 AM  
Blogger The Monster Stack said...

Please see my opinion on this matter on my blog at

3:55 AM  
Blogger Luckbox said...

Frankly, I don't remember anyone folding away a TOC seat as part of a chop deal. If you can point me to an incident, I'd love to read up on it. This is the first time I've heard of someone being paid off to lay down.

I think it goes against the very spirit of these things. This isn't about chopping the prize pool, which is legitimate in my mind. It's about laying down for the bigger prize.

Call me what you want, but as a blogger who helped set up everything from online satellites to the WSOP and even live WPBT events, I think this kind of activity is shameful... for both parties.

Winning should matter. Play for the seat.

4:32 AM  
Blogger The Monster Stack said...

Luckbox, would you rather me have won the seat and then not used it? I don't believe that winning the seat heads-up would have been a matter of skill anyway (the limits were too high) so I figured let someone who would both use it AND earned it, get it. That's all. He earned the seat by getting heads-up. There is no reason to flip for it at that point and take away what he had done until that point. I didn't mention word one about a chop until heads-up to make it fair when there were only a few players left.

5:44 AM  
Blogger Luckbox said...

TMS: Frankly, if you had won it and not been able to use it, I'm sure Al would have been able to transfer it to the second place person. Or, in that case, it meant one less player in the TOC.

I just don't think something like that should be part of chop deals. Chop the money if you want... but have some pride for the win.

6:17 AM  
Blogger Riggstad said...

Monster makes a great point about earning it by getting heads up. After that, at these limits, it is basically a flip.

I totally agree with your assesment as well Hoy and will defend it with you


7:58 AM  
Blogger StB said...

So now the rules are it is definately ok to buy a TOC seat, but not ok to sell a TOC seat. Yeah, that is fair to those who won their way in legitimately.

We also learned that getting heads up is the equivalent of winning? WTF? Does lj get a seat now? That is easily the most ridiculous thing that has been said.

Apparently your definition of spirit is whatever benefits Hoy. Screw the previous winners as long as Hoy gets his way.

Play it out. If Tom Jeff wins and the seat goes unused, so what? Lucko has a seat going unused. Why can't he sell it? You are taking $64 (price you set) out his pocket by denying him the ability to sell the seat.

12:02 AM  
Blogger Buffalo66 said...

You're still a hateful windbag.

Blogger tournaments haven't been about fun in years. Now they're just pissing contests for you egomaniacs.

I don't care how you got a satellite seat or what you do with it.

3:02 AM  
Blogger Emmett said...

Well said buddy. I am really impressed the way you have expressed your views.

3:59 PM  
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