Friday, February 16, 2007

Still More FTOPS Talk

OK. Lots to get to today.

First off, I want to say that another blogger put me on life tilt yesterday by a personal attack against me, personally, in their blog. Now, I am the first to acknowledge that many a poker rant has been penned by me on these pages, but you'll notice the key word there: poker rant. If someone has made a piss poor poker play against me, I have often been the first person to rant and rave about discuss the play here -- not the person who made the play, but the play itself. I like to think that I've never personally attacked another blogger here for all of my readers to see. I've never linked someone's blog here just to attack the quality of their writing or the very existence of their blog as sucking. I wouldn't do that, and in my experience, I don't offhand know another one of our ghey little group of bloggers that would do that. Or, I didn't think I knew anyone who would. Until yesterday. And you know what the saddest part of it all is?

I actually thought this person was my friend.

That's right. Before yesterday, though we've never met, we have shared many a chat across the virtual felt, we've given each other words of encouragement in blog comments, and I have on several occasions written right here in the blog about this person's general prowess at the poker table. Something I don't do with many people, mind you. But I guess that was one bad read on my part, one bluff that I just didn't pick off. Oh well. It happens.

What I do want to focus on today though is a few of the comments that were left on this person's blog, to their post that attacks me and my FTOPS Event #6 post from the other day. So here is the first one, referring to me when he says "he":

"He basically bitches that he can't get AA to hold up and that his lows never hit. Isn't there a low in only like 40% of hands?

So his "preflop nuts" only qualify for half the pot 40% of the time. Sounds like variance to me.

I don't know a thing about O8, but I know that he sucks."

Hmmmm. Let's see. So this commenter points out that I bitched that my AA's didn't make winning high hands and that my A2's didn't make low hands in the O8 FTOPS event earlier this week. Is this really not a valid complaint for me to make? I mean, first off, this commenter's statement that there is a low in only 40% of O8 hands is slightly too low to be considered an accurate statement (the real percentage as I understand it is 47% of hands have three low cards to qualify a low in O8). So, in just about half the possible hands, there is a low to be made. And yet, I show on the blog not one, not two, not three, but eight times in just one hour of O8 play where I was dealt an A2 in my starting hand, and failed to make a qualifying low in any of them. Now, I already know that the guy who made this comment doesn't exactly have great poker skills. But can this guy possibly have that much of a complete lack of understanding of math and odds that they don't see the statistical significance of being dealt eight A2's in an hour of O8 play, and not making a qualifying low with any of them? Not even to mention throwing in the three times I was dealt pocket Aces in that same hour, and also failed to win the high hand in any of them? Can he possibly be that out of it? Oh wait....I just now went and checked this commenter's lifetime pokerdb stats. Yeeesh. 'Nuff said.

The other comment to the original blog post attacking me and my blog personally is the following, which, unlike the first comment above, is from a person who has at least had a little bit of success in poker in their lives, as detailed on their blog which I like to read from time to time, and will continue to read despite this silly comment:

"Before I start: I Am Not An Expert O8 Player. I think your [referring to the previous comment above] odds are a little low (too lazy to look them up now), but A2xx is a better multi-way hand - you don't really want to be HU with it. In O8 there are good odds that someone else has an A2, not to mention they could have A2xx with protection for the low etc. etc. not to mention a better chance at the high hand. Playing A2xx like that is a recipe for losing the entire pot, or getting quartered."

For clarity, I added the bold emphasis in the comment above. Actually I will say one thing about the first main point this commenter makes -- in the late stages of any O8 tournament, with escalating blinds, if you're folding a hand with A2 in it because you're afraid you might only be heads-up with it, then you're nuts (although it is true that A2 is a better multiway hand than heads-up). And you're toast in the tournament too, because you don't understand how tournament O8 works then. Period.

Similarly, this commenter also makes the statement that "In O8 there are good odds that someone else has an A2". Does he really think this? Are there really "good odds" in O8 that if one person has A2, someone else also has an A2? Come on. He can't really believe that, can he? Now, change one word in his comment and it becomes accurate. Say instead that "In O8 there are low odds that someone else has an A2". Unfortunately, that one word change makes the statement the complete opposite of what was actually said by the commenter, who again it seems has at best the loosest possible grasp of general O8 concepts and odds.

But back to the emphasized language, where I added the bold into their comment above, in which the commenter says that playing A2xx "like that" is a recipe for losing the entire pot, or getting quartered. "Playing A2xx like that"? Like what? Like, raising it before the flop in the late stages of a limit O8 tournament? Did I go allin preflop with this hand? No. It's a limit tournament. I simply raised. One small bet. In fact, I didn't even reraise it preflop in any single one of the eight hands I showed from my last hour in the tournament where I was dealt A2 in my starting hand and had a short stack to begin with. And in many cases I checked the flop when I didn't nail a low with my A2 right off the bat. But I did raise it up preflop. Do you really think that it is correct not to raise an A2xx hand preflop in the late stages of an O8 tournament, with an M of between 3 and 6 throughout the entire last hour? If you do, all I can say is please play some O8 tournaments with me in the near future. You can name your stakes, and I'll take it. Now, I am all about chiming in in support of one's friends and their blogs with comments on their blog posts -- I do this myself whenever I can for the other bloggers whom I respect -- but why make yourself look downright foolish with a statement like this? Clearly the commenter's very first statement in their comment is more than accurate: You are indeed not an expert O8 player. That much is obvious.

OK I guess that's all I have to say about that issue, other than to formally note here in the blog that I was very hurt by the personal attack against my blog, so hopefully that will officially give the person who made this personal attack some real satisfaction in that they got exactly what they wanted from making the post. To tell the truth, I honestly believe they got even more than they wanted by making that post, because it really put me on life tilt. In fact, by the time I got home, I already knew I didn't even want to play poker last night after seeing this "friend"'s statement about me personally. But, having already qualified for FTOPS #7 (nlh with rebuys), I had to go ahead and play it out. I actually started off playing well, and grew my starting stack of 1500 chips to over 2000 within the first few minutes when I put another player on an aggressive steal, let him bet at me twice and then raised him out of the pot on the turn.

I won a few more small pots over the next 10 or 15 minutes, and then to make a long story short, I got allin preflop with my AQ against what turned out to be my opponent's AJ in a true Monkey Hour special. When the flop came down KQT, I was basically relieved. I mean it. I wasn't even angry. I totally didn't even consider rebuying for another $200, and instead just logged off of full tilt for the night. In my haste I forgot that I had already signed up for cc's Thursday Bash, a private pokerstars tournament that I played in for the first time last week and really enjoyed, and before I knew it the screen popped up with me at a starting table of 7 other bloggers, most of whom I also consider friends and who (I think) feel the same about me.

Anyways, on life tilt, I ended up making not my best play early in that event, pushing in with A7 on a board of 345 when I figured my opponent, Fuel55, to be on the kind of play that he's constantly sending around in his emails, where he basically bets and raises with nothing or not much, and I knew I had a double belly buster staight draw, plus two overcards, so I went with it. Not my worst play ever -- I'm thinking I most likely had 14 outs twice (3 Aces, 3 Sevens, 4 Twos and 4 Sixes), making me the favorite in the hand, and if not then I have to figure against most holdings I put Fuel on there, I am at least a 40% dog if not a significant favorite over a hand like KQ that unquestionably is within Fuel's hand range there (a fact which he will deny, but it's still da troof) -- but when he flipped his pocket 6s my outs were cut to just a few, and I donked out early. And again, no anger. Just relief. I really just wanted to get to sleep and try to forget the whole thing from yesterday. I already feel a lot better about that personal attack post against me here this morning, and more than that, I defend to the hilt this person's right to write whatever the funk they want in their blog. I just can't get over this feeling of disappointment, of sadness, that I misjudged someone so badly as this.

Well, I guess it's not the first time I've misread somebody and surely not the last in the world of poker. And, obviously I need to develop some thicker skin if I'm going to put myself out there like this. But how do you "big" bloggers do it? With all the personal attention and all the mean, angry, depressed, disappointed, jealous, lonely, loser people out there who will say mean things about you the more they know about you and the more successful you seem to become (either in your poker playing or in your blogging generally), how do you just let this stuff roll off of you and keep going on? Even from people you thought would never say or do things like that? How do you just keep going on when you know there are people out there who would do this kind of thing, and say bad things about you personally, and make those bad things publicly available in a medium like a blog where anyone else can see them? How do you just keep doing your thing? Clearly, this is something I need to improve at, and I would appreciate any and all comments on the matter.

OK well back to some actual poker content. So I busted very early from yesterday's FTOPS Event #7 Rebuy event, electing not to rebuy after a guy who called my preflop raise with his assdominated AJ hand went on to flop the nuts with KQT and stack me, making it now 4 FTOPS events and no cashes from me. Tonight is Event #8, the pot-limit holdem event, which is the event in which I did record my only FTOPS cash in last November's FTOPS, and it's a game in which I have been very successful overall in my poker career, so I am cautiously optimistic about tonight's tournament and my chances of making a cash that can hopefully cover my expenses in qualifying for the 6 FTOPS events I am in this year (about $400 total, maybe a bit less but not much). As these events wear on, I have to acknowledge that the odds of me being shut out of the FTOPS are growing, and that's not something I am happy about, but reality is reality and that's the way it's been for me so far in this thing. I've got Event #8 PLH tonight, and then of course on Sunday evening at 6pm ET is the FTOPS Main Event, the $535 buyin nlh tournament with a $1.5 million guaranteed prize pool, and at least a 175k prize for first place. Obviously I'm really looking forward to that tournament, as it will be easily the largest prize pool in which I have ever participated online (and second only to my WSOP event from last summer as far as all the live and online poker tournaments I've ever played in), and I may try to get something up here on the blog over the weekend about that event if it tickles my fancy.

One last item: This Sunday night at 9:30pm ET is also the latest Blogger Big Game hosted by Miami Don. As always, it's a $75 buyin nlh tournament at full tilt, and the password for all of the Big Game tournaments is "donkey". Please come out and play in this tournament if you're interested, as it is a great chance for everyone to get together and play, and it's a nice big fat buyin which makes the tournament itself something really fun to play for. And, it's also a great opportunity to get involved in some of those Tier 1 and Tier 2 token sng's on full tilt, in which it's really not that hard (maybe for those commenters to the mean post above it would be, but not for most of you with a decent grasp of poker math and poker odds) to turn $8 into $75 through full tilt's generous 18-person, $8 buyin and then $26 buyin sitngos, where in each case the top 5 finishers out of 18 players move on to the next level. Basically, all you need to do is finish anywhere in the top 5 out of 18 players in one of the $8 buyin sngs, and then take the $26 you win from that sng, and finish anywhere in the top 5 of 18 players in one of the $26 buyin sngs, and you're there. $75 to you, and you're in the Big Game. So come out and play in the biggest-buyin (and probably highest-skill) of the regular blogger nlh tournaments, this Sunday night at 9:30pm ET. You can do this while you watch me on my way to the final table of the FTOPS Main Event, which starts Sunday night at 6pm ET as well, so Sunday will be a big night for a number of your favorite poker bloggers. See you there!

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Blogger Falstaff said...

There are a few things that help me deal with putting myself out in public on my blog, not that I'm a "big" blogger in any way other than waistline.

1) I have an ego that make Bracelet's junk look microscopic, so I have a tight grasp on exactly how fabulous I am, so other peoples' opinions matter very little.
2) see #1
3) Being from South Carolina originally, I can't read, so I never know if anyone slags me on their blog.
4) I write drivel such that no one reads it, so it is much easier to avoid the slings and arrows of rude-ass donkeys.

In your case I suggest #5 - count the money you've won playing MTTs. The clink of coins maketh the heart glad.

11:41 PM  
Blogger Fuel55 said...

I'd slag Falstaff but he is just too damn cute.

Hoy - your results speak for themselves.

11:59 PM  
Blogger AlCantHang said...

For instances like this, good healthy dose of "who gives a fuck what anyone thinks" works just fine for me.

12:00 AM  
Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

Thanks, Falstaff. The thing is, I too have just about the biggest ego in history (as if you couldn't already tell that from my blog). I think most successful poker players probably fit in this category to some degree as well. And it's not like I think these comments really mean I'm a bad player. It's just more the rudeness of personally attacking someone in a public forum that I don't get. From someone I thought (and still think, really) is a nice person. I guess it comes with the territory and I need to get thicker skin about it, but the whole thing really just blindsided me is all.
Anyways thanks a bunch for your comments man as always.

12:06 AM  
Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

Thanks guys, really. The thing is, if the person had been attacking my play in some way, I wouldn't really care at all (and they'd probably be wrong anyways). It was the personal nature of the attack that shocked me. Like I said I'm feeling better about it this morning already, but man did this thing tilt me last night. I need to get better about this fo sho.

12:08 AM  
Blogger jjok said...

sometimes results speak better than words. You've done very well, and I think that garners more than enough merit.

It's your blog, you write what you want. Those folks can post and say whatever they want too....

Course of action for me would be
1. Say "who gives a shit"
2. Final Table Main Event
3. Gloat

Because I expect nothing less.....

12:13 AM  
Blogger brdweb said...

Hoy, just keep your head up and doing what you're doing. I love reading your blog.

I was also sorry to see you go out relatively early last night. Me? I did it the hard way and threw $800 into it only to push with AK vs AQ and IGHN in 230 something.....

Probably a -ev event with all the studs I saw playing but I think I did pretty well. I had Sheets on my right for about 1 1/2 hours and didn't do anything stupid :)

12:27 AM  
Blogger brdweb said...

Oh and the AQ hit runner runner flush :)

12:28 AM  
Blogger CJ said...

Sorry to rain on your parade... but her post was a joke. You need to thicken your skin. Especially when you say you don't personally attack people and then say in the exact same post that people are terrible poker players. Kind of cuts the legs out from under your argument.

Regarding your O8 play. I think you overvalue A2xx and AAxx in O8. They are fine hands initially, but because O8 is a drawing game and because four cards are available to each player, the "made" hands hold much less value post-flop and the "nut low" hands are easily counterfeited.

Finally, if you haven't been attacked for the quality of your blog in the past, you're lucky. Everyone's gone through that. If you're lucky, you hire Otis and your blog's standing shoots through the roof. If you're not lucky, your blog is like Waffles'.

(In this case, Waffles knows I'm joking and will not likely overreact. In fact, he'll likely feel honored that I choose him to joke about. Waffles roooools.)

12:33 AM  
Blogger Garthmeister J. said...

Hey there - long time listener, first time caller. I thought I may as well go on the record as "mystery commenter #2". I didn't mean to get involved in some kind of blog flame war, but I figured I may as well put my hand up here and say I was one of the commenters quoted in Hoy's post. Hoy, I respect your game - your results speak for themselves, and by no means did I intend to attack you personally. I'm going to re-iterate that IANAO8E, but I still stand by my comments: even in tournaments I think (think!) that overplaying A2xx can get you in more trouble than it is worth if you don't have a good shot at the high, especially when the flop has only one low card.

Here's a list of O8 odds: (I didn't have this yesterday). According to the link "If you hold an A-2 in a nine-handed game, there is 36% likelihood that one or more players also hold an A-2." - in my mind those are "good odds". Where I was coming from yesterday (without knowing the exact odds) was my thoughts that too often in O8 you're going to be up against someone with another A2xx because of people's starting hand selection. If you disagree, that's cool.

It sure would have been better for me to post my comment on your post directly, but I figured if I was going to make an idiot of myself the person who has the blog I made the comment on would correct me, as they are a much better O8 player than I am. (This is the part where you have a chance to say: hey, you made an idiot of yourself anyway).

I don't intend to start a long-running argument here (yeah, best intentions and all that) - if you would like to chat some more feel free to send me an email (the email address on my blog I don't check regularly but I'll try and keep an eye on it) or give me a call.


12:46 AM  
Blogger Chilly said...

You're right. Personal attacks are unwarranted and wrong. I should have made the comment here, and not made it personal.

I took a couple of statements you made about the tournament, pulled them out of context and posted about them elsewhere. All things that would piss me off if someone did them to me. In fact these are things that I have gone off on others for in the past. I had a lapse in judgment.

You don't suck, you made plays that I think are questionable, over valuing certain hands and lamenting the lost pot. That is what I really think, and that is what I should have posted, here, not there.

I sincerely apologize.

12:57 AM  
Blogger Fuel55 said...

Waffles rooooooooooools. Now that is funny!

1:10 AM  
Blogger Eric a.k.a. Bone Daddy said...

What's O8?

1:11 AM  
Blogger SirFWALGMan said...

I did not see the personal part of the attack.. he just said you suck at O8.. big deal.. now give us the link so we can read the whole thing in context you big baby.

I wish I could be as popular as CJ for being Otis's lackey. *sigh*

1:16 AM  
Blogger SirFWALGMan said...

One other thing.. I think A2 is a very vulnerable hand.. especially without backup. It is very likely to either be counterfitted or quartered both of which are bad things if you do not have something else to go with..

Now in MTT play sometimes you have to play weaker hands harder because the blinds are increasing and you just can not wait like you can in an O8 cash game.. So playing them is fine even if they can cause you trouble.. at least thats my opinion..

1:18 AM  
Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

CJ, I have to disagree that I "overvalue" A2xx and AAxx hands. I actually think I have a very good grasp of the value of those hands in O8. Go back and read my post. I wouldn't care if I lost a hand with A2xx or AAxx. I wouldn't care if I lost 2 such hands. Or 3. Or 4. But, if I fail to make my hand in 11 instances of those two hands in just the last hour in the late stages of an O8 tournament, to me that is odd enough and annoying that it was worthy of a blog post. If you don't think so? Fine. It's my blog, and I think it was worthy of posting, and I still do.

And as far as me "overvaluing" those hands, I can only repeat what I said in today's post. I raised with each of them one time in a limit O8 tournament, in the late stages where the blinds were large and my M was basically around 5 or lower almost the entire time. Never once did I even reraise them. Not once. I also didn't automatically bet the flop in all of them if I didn't make the nuts with them when the flop came down. All I did was raise before the flop with each of them one time in a limit O8 tournament. If someone thinks that is me "overvaluing" those hands, then so be it, I defend of course your right to that opinion, but it is an opinion with which I heartily disagree and in fact it's an opinion that I don't believe you would actually follow either (feel free to say so if you feel differently of course).

Also, say what you want here about the original post being "a joke". Not sure how to even respond to that statement. I guess regardless of what broad category like that you would put the post into, I was very surprised disappointed to see it.

And you also missed a point I tried to make several times in today's post. Cut on my poker play, and I won't be up here being shocked and disappointed. I may be many things but one of those things is not a hypocrite. I am well aware of everything I've ever written on the blog and lord knows I've been the first to question a play or plays that someone has made at the poker table, and on many occasions I've done so in a raw, angry, ranty format. But cut on me or my blog personally, and I think that is a whole different matter. So while you may feel I've undercut my own argument by pointing out how foolish (pokerwise) some of the poker commentary was that was cutting on me, then again so be it and I suuport your right to that opinion. I don't share that opinion at all. Did I point out how miserably unreadable these people's blogs are (with a link of course so everyone can go right to the offending blog)? Did I mention that these guys are terrible writers and have had an effect on my blog reading habits generally because of their badness? Come on. It's apples and oranges, but if you feel differently, I'm all about that. But I don't think I've undercut anything I've said in that post by anything else I've said in the post.

And you're right, I've made the point several times today but clearly I need to develop some thicker skin about this sort of thing. Coming from you, as clearly one of the best known bloggers, that is meaningful constructive criticism for me that I need to follow. Plenty of times someone has attacked a play I made, or responded negatively to a poker statement I've made in my blog. But this is the first time that I know of where I've been personally and publicly attacked for the quality of my blog. Not the last I'm sure.

And Garth, I hardly call this a blog flame war (talk about a ghey concept), and in fact I've gone out of my way not say anything bad about the person who started this all, because I've always liked them and still can't really jibe my good feelings about the person with their nasty blog post.

And I appreciate your comments here. FWIW though, I can only point out again that I don't see how I "overplayed" A2xx in any of these hands. Not a one of them. You can read above in this comment for the details of that assertion, and frankly I don't disagree with you that people generally may overplay A2xx in O8 tournaments. Raising one time with them preflop with low M's in the late stages of an O8 tournament is not in my mind "overplaying" A2xx. If you disagree, I love that you can disagree there and we can agree to disagree on that point.

And btw I'm not at all saying that it would have been better for you to make those comments on my own blog. For the life of me I totally defend everyone's right to say whatever they want, wherever they want, anywhere in the ghey little blogiverse. That is definitely not an idea that I was trying to get at at all in my post today.

Anyhow no hard feelings against you, just like the original poster of this all, I actually have always liked you and haven't known you to be nasty to me or to anyone at all in all the time I've been part of this whole poker blogging scene. Apparently I really offend people with some of the things I say in my blog, which I never actually intend to do. I guess I will try to be more cognizant of that going forward. Not to say that I won't keep doing what I'm doing here, but at least to be more aware of who I might be offending when I'm writing.

1:22 AM  
Blogger StB said...

You let Chilly get under your skin? Rule 1. Never let people who drink shitty beer get to you. Rule 2. Don't drink tequila.

2:02 AM  
Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

Guess I didn't do a good job at all of explaining the situation in my post. Real quick (because this has gotten way out of hand for something that I don't even actually care about anymore), it wasn't either of the comments that I included in today's post that I thought were the personal attacks against me. It was the post under which which those two comments were posted (on someone else's blog) that was the more personal statement about me /my blog in general. I did not include the content of that original post in my post today, mostly because it is not the kind of thing I feel like reproducing and putting up here, and also because I have no desire whatsoever to publicly attach an identity to any of the people involved in any of this.

So to be clear, while I think the poker content of the two comments I highlighted in my post today is dubious at best, those comments attacking my play are not things that bother me in the least, and neither of those posts is to me in any way a personal attack against me. Even when the first guy says he knows I suck, even that is talking about my O8 play and not me personally (as I read it anyways). Even if these two comments were completely accurate statements, which I don't think they are here, I recognize that sort of thing immediately as something that many of us (myself all the time) have done in our blogs -- get knocked out of a tournament by somebody making a questionable play, you blog about the play, and maybe if you're me you do so in a less than complimentary or constructive way. And as I've said above I may be a lot of things, but a hypocrite is not one of them.

So one more time, those two comments to me are not personal attacks against me at all. It was a different statement entirely that set me off last night, which those two comments were in response to, that I felt personally attacked by. Just to be clear.

2:12 AM  
Blogger lucko said...

I blame Waffles.

2:14 AM  
Blogger slb159 said...

Falstaff makes an excellent point in his #1 and #2. Hmmm, bathroom references...this isn't starting off well.

Anyway, I know of at least one blogger who thinks I'm just about the worst poker player in the world, but I don't care...good for him.

On the other hand, I've also had a handful of bloggers notice that I have been improving and reassure me that I'll make it to the level of people like you someday.

So, I agree with Al and jj as well and figure if your results speak for themselves, then who gives a shit.

Oh well, guess that was all a big waste of time since I could have simply used the old adage, "Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one."

That, and what Lucko said...haha.

Gl tonight.

2:28 AM  
Blogger Garthmeister J. said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

2:48 AM  
Blogger Garthmeister J. said...

(I deleted the last post - I decided to put spaces in as this comment is too long, and no spaces makes it look gross. Even this bit at the top is making the comment longer. I should probably stop.)

No worries, just felt that I should respond. I mean, IMNAO8E, but I'm really hoping IMNAO8D. (I'm the only one who's getting perverse enjoyment out of my acronyms, arent' I? Yeah, thought so.) I'm also interested in whether you thought 36% was "good odds" of someone else having A2xx when you also have A2xx - I sure do, especially when you factor in you raising pre-flop, thus narrowing the range of hands people are going to call you with (the "narrowing" heavily dependent on the player, of course).
Anyhoo, we're already more than taxing my my brain - hungover is not the correct state to be in when discussing games of two cards, let alone four - but in the main I prefer limping with A2xx, though I can understand raising from LP (no limpers are going to fold, you might get the blinds out, and you're building the pot - I don't want to risk pushing people out if I am in EP).

The decision about whether to play on or not after the flop is insanely important in O8, cash or tournaments. Yes, as blinds escalate in a tourney you're going to face some tough decisions, but I feel by limiting the amount of chips you are devoting to the pot pre-flop allows you to not feel like you are committed to pots that miss you (as well as leaving you more chips to allow you to get into another pot), with the added bonus that even if you get quartered you could pull in a tidy amount of chips. And if you scoop.... cha ching!

Yes, eventually you're going to have to get it all in the middle, and you can only hope that the hand you get it in with is as good as the one you had in FTOPS #6. I should mention that I ran the numbers on that hand (you should perhaps look away, this is nasty) and you were 72.2% pre-flop, 75.7% on the flop, and 67.5% on the turn. Hurty.

Fun fact: I should mention that the last time I played a limit O8 tournament was 3 months ago or something, and I may have played 5 lifetime. Just felt I should put out there, as it gives me a chance to type IMNAO8E again. It also means I am quite prepared to have Drizz or someone jump all over me for being a complete doofus.

And it's not "loosest possible grasp of general O8 concepts and odds" it's "loosest possible grasp of general poker concepts and odds, not to mention personal hygiene". But hey, I'm working on the hygiene thing.

2:49 AM  
Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

Hey Garth, I meant to respond specifically to the 36% thing. We could go back and forth over whether 1/3 is "good odds" or "bad odds", and frankly I don't think it matters much in the end. I'll give you this: if you had asked me what % of the time someone else has A2 in their hand if you have it yourself at a 9-handed table in O8, I would have guessed something lower than 36%. Not a whole lot lower, but I am a bit surprised by that number being quite as high as it is. So there you go.

And I fully accept all of your comments about choosing to limp with A2 in O8 pots, even in tournaments. I don't subscribe to that strategy, and as you get a shorter and shorter stack and the blinds grow higher and higher, I personally find it to be harder and harder to justify following that strategy as a rule. But I also accept that someone else who is better and/or has more O8 experience than me might feel differently about the point. This is the way I play late-stage O8 tournaments, and it's done well for me in my day. The time it really tends to kill me is when I do it 8 times in an hour when the blinds have got my M down to 5 or less, and all 8 times I don't make a qualifying low. I'm far too lazy to figure the odds on that one, but I can't see them as being anything but very low. Hence, my blog post.

Anyways, no hard feelings on my end. Thanks for the comments.

3:14 AM  
Blogger Donkeypuncher said...

Is there any way that I can subscribe to the comments for this post? I'm really entertained by this thread. Ummm, I mean learning a lot about O8. The secret to O8??? Find Drizz on instant messenger and ask him what to do.

3:15 AM  
Blogger HighOnPoker said...

Hoy, its about time you got into some silly middle school girl drama in the blogosphere. I remember my first time like it was yesterday. Since then, I've had one or two more. In the end, everyone just ends up feeling silly about the whole thing. I know it is easier said than done, but hopefully you can put it behind you. When you put yourself out there in a blog, someone somewhere will take exception with how you think. It sucks, but its going to happen. They'll say something and you'll take it personally and it'll go back and forth and then eventually, you'll both forget why you even were arguing.

So, my point is, this was inevitable. It's part of being widely read. Sorry, bro.

3:25 AM  
Blogger CJ said...

1) Perhaps saying you overvalue the hand is wrong. I meant to say I don't believe the hands themselves are as strong as you seem to think they are. Those hands often fail to hold up. And even if they fail to hold up for a few hands in a row, there's a simple explanation: Variance. If you're complaining about variance, join the club.

2) AlCantHang always wins, "Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special Olympics..."

4:21 AM  
Blogger bayne_s said...


Let me apologise if I offended you with chat box comments on hand you busted out of in CC's Thursday bash. We all know Fuel has a wide range of hands and you were really only in bad shape against 67, 66, 65, 64, 63 and 62. Of course 62 may be the only hand in this group that Fuel might not raise with.

Play you went out on pales in comparison to fonkey play I busted out on.

4:34 AM  
Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

CJ, agreed on all counts. For what it's worth, I never viewed any of this as "arguing", but if that's how it comes across then so be it. And you know what, I am complaining about variance, so I will join the club. Isn't that what I do best on this blog anyways, when it comes right down to it?

Bayne, I couldn't have cared less about the comments after my bustout from the CC last night. So happens most of you donks didn't even catch that I actually held a double belly buster straight draw. Which is exactly why Doyle (and me) love them so much -- they are so hard to see. And in any event, I was playing on tilt so that explains a lot of why I put it all in on that hand once Fuel was clear that he had something good. As I've discussed with Fuel, he's lucky not to have lost that hand, with just a low pair (albeit an overpair) and an oesd. Any pocket pair 7s or higher for me, or if I hit any of my overcards, and he is in big trouble.

5:05 AM  
Blogger Raveen said...

hoy your one of the bloggers that I think is MORE respected that anyone out there. You know that as well as most of us out there. People can say whatever and will say the end its up to you to choose what to believe. You know your good and your results speak for themselves. F*** what some people have to say.

5:49 AM  
Blogger BadBlood said...

I take solace in the fact that if people piss me off, I'll just bloody them up a bit. I kid, I'd never fight anyone. Except Maudie, that whole steel chair to the head and all.

Many times, if people disagree with what I post, I'll try to learn from them and why they disagree. I'd never take any criticisms personally.

Unless of course they say something about the mini's. Then I'll hunt them down, chainsaw off their limbs and cauterize their wounds with a blow torch.

But I haven't had to ever do that.

7:20 AM  
Blogger bayne_s said...


You did hit one of your overcards on hand, it gave fuel straight.

Not all "double belly buster" staright draws are equal. Holding 57 on a 369 flop gives a well disguised straight draw.

To make a point holding 8 2 on a 456 flop brings about 2 problems if 3 hits on turn:

1) Everyone can see 3 4 5 6 on board, the overpair is not going to pay you off.

2) If you bet the only caller is holding a 7.

You already devoted one post (re: Eric Froelich) this week on ugly side of drawing to OESD from under side. You had no history with Eric so rightfully suspected he had middling high card. You must have noticed at some point in the past that Fuel likes to play little connectors especially if they contain a 5.

Agree that if Fuel has 88 through QQ you are in good shape. If Fuel has KK you can go ahead and start "stacking the chips" and waiting for Fuel to type "Fawk I hate Kings".

It is rare for us to see you get your money into pot in as bad a shape as last night.

7:30 AM  
Blogger Bloody P said...

I think calico cats are pretty!

9:04 AM  
Blogger C.L. Russo said...

LOL dramaments

10:11 PM  
Blogger Iakaris aka I.A.K. said...

Holy Fuck...don't check what's goin on for a few days and look what trouble you get yerself into...

Not much to add that you don't already know.

This is exactly why I stick to NLHE... no one ever gets into shit like this holding two cards (well established Poker Fact).

Got yer back, of course, but not that you need it.

10:30 PM  
Blogger TripJax said...

I love lamp.

5:33 AM  

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