Wednesday, June 20, 2007

The Tiltmonkey Returns

Wow. It seems a regular old night at the 1-2 nlh ring tables on full tilt has now led to a two-day (and counting) tilt-bender from another blogger. How much longer will it last? I guess we'll have to wait and see. Ima just buy some popcorn while I sit back and enjoy the show.

A fellow blogger commented to me last night in the girly chat how Tuesday was a whole day full of disputes in the poker blogiverse. I asked this person what they were talking about, and they referred to the silliness on my blog (I didn't realize I was having a fight with anyone, actually, although it seems somebody got pretty tilted, directing the anger mostly at me for some strange reason). This guy then referred to the Waffles - Smokkee thing, which I also didn't see as a big deal. I mean, so Waffles thinks Smokkee's been playing a bit tight recently. Smokkee semi-agrees with that sentiment in his blog, and frankly I would go so far as to say that I have often had a similar reaction when I've been running as bad as Smokkee has lately with his big hands. Then this person also mentioned the Waffles - Chad thing, which was a little bit pissy but still to me nothing worth getting your panties into a twist about. I mean basically, Chad I guess had been typing in "King King King" into the chat when Waffles got allin with 32 players left in the inaugural 50-50 tournament two nights ago on full tilt, when Waffles had an A2 and his opponent had K7 or something like that. The King hit on the river and Waffles was eliminated, and then he had complained in his blog about Chad rooting against him. Now while I'm not saying I would have enjoyed the taunt-chatting or whatever it was in that spot either, in general as far as I'm concerned I'm a firm believer that anybody can say whatever they want in the chat, and it would never bother me. As much as I've tilted only about a million times from poker, in all cases it's been from things that have happened to me with the cards, and/or the incredible luck I've seen go against me after thousands and thousands of hours of online play. But nobody has ever tilted me from the online poker chat in as long as I have played the game, or as long as I ever will play the game. Nobody. Period. If somebody roots against me, so be it. The Waffles we all know and love should not be complaining about that in his blog. He had a great run and played very well in a new tournament, a lot of guys we know were there to see it, and that's that. I don't care if someone was typing "die die die" about me in a tournament I was playing in, it shouldn't and doesn't really matter in my view. I wouldn't complain -- I've had people root against me at the poker tables about 10,000 times since becoming a blogger, and I've managed to gather a ton of haters out there, and I've never complained about it on my blog or even cared about it really. So to me, none of these things from Tuesday were actually big deals, although I will admit it made for some interesting reading throughout the day.

Anyways, I'm still trying to figure out how does someone get so tilted and angry at me from what happened at the cash tables the other night? In fact, as I reviewed all the hand histories and all the screenshots and all the chat, I really don't even know why I became such a focus of scorn for this poor guy. I think it was that hand where I moved allin over the top for 400-some dollars into a $30-something pot that really set the guy off. Not sure why that has to engender so much anger. So what if I knew exactly what my opponent had on that hand and made a calculated move to try to school someone who doesn't know not to overplay longshot hands against hands that are clearly well ahead. Is that really enough to set someone off on a two day tilt-rage? Wow. I guess some people are even more unstable than me out there. All I know is, I couldn't be happier if an opponent started moving allin for huge sums of money in massive cash game overbets when I've been betting and raising. I imagine I would stack that person even faster than I stacked this other blogger the other night. I mean, so you lost a significant portion of your full tilt bankroll at that game. Big deal. How many other times have you busted yourself by playing 73s and 52o and hands like that? Tens? Hundreds? Something tells me the guy will come up with some more money soon and will be back at the tables playing his particular brand of "poker" before we know it. Which I look forward to btw. Immensely.

Anyways ignoring all the silliness and anger in the comments and from the tiltmonkey's blog, which I think I will let speak for itself and leave at that, Jordan made some interesting comments about collusion and just generally about people chatting at the poker table that I found interesting and thought I would write about today.

First off, here is the hand history of the hand where this tilty blogger busted for the last time the other night:

Full Tilt Poker Game #2707052363: Table Hidden Quail - $1/$2 - No Limit Hold'em - 1:16:37 ET - 2007/06/19
Seat 1: bayne_s ($239.40)
Seat 2: RecessRampage ($190.60)
Seat 3: GimmeFiction ($261.25)
Seat 4: hoyazo ($433.25)
Seat 5: Victim ($137.45)
Seat 6: steamingdonkey1 ($234.60)
Seat 7: MAROMB78 ($236.35), is sitting out
Seat 8: TwistedDonkey ($229.05)
Seat 9: yobabysdaddy ($168.90)
GimmeFiction posts the small blind of $1
hoyazo posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Victim [Qh Qd]
Victim: oh in some tournament?
Victim has 15 seconds left to act
Victim raises to $7
steamingdonkey1 folds
RecessRampage: no in cash game
TwistedDonkey folds
yobabysdaddy calls $7
bayne_s folds
Victim: oh... was that $25 NL?
RecessRampage raises to $31
GimmeFiction folds
hoyazo has 15 seconds left to act
hoyazo folds
RecessRampage: dude, I don't have details
Victim has 15 seconds left to act
Victim has requested TIME
hoyazo: foldy foldy
hoyazo: ATo no good here

RecessRampage: lol
Victim raises to $137.45, and is all in
yobabysdaddy folds
RecessRampage: lmao
RecessRampage calls $106.45
Victim shows [Qh Qd]
RecessRampage shows [Ac Ad]
*** FLOP *** [2h 4c 5h]
*** TURN *** [2h 4c 5h] [Jc]
*** RIVER *** [2h 4c 5h Jc] [Kc]
Victim shows a pair of Queens
RecessRampage shows a pair of Aces
RecessRampage wins the pot ($281.90) with a pair of Aces
MiamiDon (Observer): oops
Victim is sitting out
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $284.90 | Rake $3
Board: [2h 4c 5h Jc Kc]
Seat 1: bayne_s didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: RecessRampage (button) showed [Ac Ad] and won ($281.90) with a pair of Aces
Seat 3: GimmeFiction (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: hoyazo (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: Victim showed [Qh Qd] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 6: steamingdonkey1 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: MAROMB78 is sitting out
Seat 8: TwistedDonkey didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: yobabysdaddy folded before the Flop

***

On several occasions in blog comments Jordan refers to inappropriate chat that occurred in this hand, and to inappropriately "goading" other players to make certain plays. I guess I just don't see what is wrong in this hand. You can see the chat above. Did anyone say anything in appropriate there? I'd be interested to know what it was if anyone out there thinks someone said something that was "wrong" in some way from a poker perspective. I mean, Alan and Victim had just been discussing a previous hand where Victim had pushed allin with ATo, so when Victim raised and then Alan reraised, I typed in my usual "foldy foldy, ATo no good here." If you think that is somehow inappropriate chat at a blogger cash table, then I'm not sure what to think. I don't see what's inappropriate there. I haven't seen Jordan play a whole lot of blogger cash recently, and maybe that's part of the problem here, because this kind of thing goes on all the time at these tables, and it's just fine IMO. In most cases it's the whole reason we're playing at these tables to begin with. It's fun and we're here to chat it up and have a good time.

Am I somehow to blame for Victim's stacking there with the QQ? Am I somehow to blame, as Victim claims on his "blog", for Victim's allin reraise with the QQ there, just because I typed in "foldy foldy, ATo no good here" in the table chat? You can't really believe that, can you anyone out there? Anyone who thinks that was inappropriate, I would love to understand why.

Jordan also made the general comment here yesterday that "Even in friendly blogger games, its extremely wrong to tell someone how to act, even if you are doing it in a kidding way."

I don't think I agree with this statement, at least not in its generality, and I would love to know if you out there feel differently. I mean, for starters, I 100% agree in many specific instances it is wrong to comment. For example, I'm playing at a random non-blogger live cash table in some casino, and I limp from utg, some guy raises from MP, and then I reraise him preflop when the action gets back to me for all the rest of my chips on a massive overraise. The guy is clearly thinking of calling, and then some guy at the table who has played a lot of hands with me but doesn't know the other guy yells out "Hey donkey, Hoy limped utg and then reraised over the top allin, he clearly has pocket Aces so GET OUT!". The guy thinks and then folds his hand, flipping up pocket Queens to show what he's folding. That would piss me off, and it would be completely inappropriate in my view. So in that sense I think Jordan is clearly correct, and in fact I really can't see entertaining any argument that says otherwise. That's not proper poker conduct IMO, period.

However, Jordan's statement completely ignores the situation of a player who is currently involved in a hand trying to influence another player currently involved in the hand to make a certain play, an omission which I'm not sure was intentional or not. So, for example, if I have the nuts, is it "wrong" of me somehow to pause for 3 minutes before I smooth call an opponent's bet on the flop, just to try to convince him to bet or call more chips off to me later in the hand due to my weak act when I am in fact stronger than strong? To me, that's just poker. Great poker, if I don't say so myself. Similarly, is it wrong of me to type "Oh well I'll just take a chance" into the chat before I reraise allin preflop in an online poker game, when I know in fact that I am holding pocket Aces and will be dominatingly ahead of any hand my opponent might call with? Is that somehow inappropriate activity at the poker table in any of your minds? Because if you say it is, then #1 every single blogger I know has been guilty of this from time to time, and #2, you're wrong. Deception, trickery, and goading an opponent into calling are all part of poker, and to suggest that telling someone else at the table how to act is "extremely wrong" is I think too flip at best, and probably just a downright inaccurate statement overall. Do you people out there disagree with me on this?

I also think Jordan's statement is too extreme in that I think the line tends to get blurred when you're playing with guys you know, and/or sitting in a friendly game. And I certainly think the last part of Jordan's statement, "even if you are doing it in a kidding way", is a fuzzy line at best.

For example, I sat at the mgm poker room at a 1-2 table for more than 20 hours over two days last weekend in Las Vegas, and during most of that time we probably had an average of 7 or 8 bloggers around a 10-person table, making for a lot of fun times across the board, but also a lot of table chatter amongst the group as some of us knew each other, and even among the strangers since we were playing in a very friendly, jokey kind of a game. There were numerous hands where I made a big preflop raise, it folded around to a guy who had limped across the table, and he had a conversation with another blogger sitting next to him about his decision before folding his hand. So what? That didn't bother me in the least. Some of those times I had a monster and really wanted him to call. Others of those times I was bluffing out my ass and really wanted him to fold. The other blogger dude didn't know what I had in my hand any more than the stranger guy did. It didn't bother me, and I don't think it violated some written or unwritten rule of poker in that context. It was a friendly game, there was tons of table chatter going on and I not only thought that was ok, but I enjoyed the chatter. In fact, as I've written about previously, that kind of chat, analysis and comaraderie made the weekend as far as I'm concerned.

Similarly, there were times at that mgm cash table where some blogger at the other end of the table raised big preflop after two limpers from our end, where I know we then proceeded to have some discussion at our end of the table about what the other guy likely had, including with two or more players at our end who were still involved in the hand. Since none of us really knew what the other guy had, and it was openly a friendly, chatty game to all the players involved, this didn't bother anyone at the table and again, I say that sort of stuff is a lot of what made playing with my friends so much fun.

And as far as telling players what to do at the table "in a kidding way", I just don't think anyone is going to convince me that it's wrong of me to say something like "Uh oh, better fold that Hammer!" when a guy gets reraised preflop at a blogger cash table. It's not inappropriate to say that. It's a joke, it's funny and it's enjoyed by everyone at the table. So what if the other guy has pocket Aces and was hoping for a call. I agree that it's a fine line, but IMO it should be just fine for someone to jokingly suggest that another player fold a hand to a raise, in particular at a friendly, jokey table full of friendly, jokey guys.

Lastly, I should also note that in the tiltmonkey's blog I see the following quote in the comments:

"I do remember your consoling chat after the hand, although it did take the back seat having been in the midst of all the digs directed towards me; all of which I think were entirely uncalled for, hence my complaints."

I will say this once, and a lot of other bloggers were there who can confirm or deny my impression, but the "digs" at this table were nonexistent at first, until the tiltmonkey blogger himself took it upon himself to refer to me as an "idiot tournament player" in the chat, after which point a number of the players at the table and on the rail escalated things (escalation which I was barely even a participant in, btw). Now, I can talk smack with the best of 'em, and I surely didn't mind in the slightest, tiniest little bit that comment directed at me. I enjoyed it, because it showed the extreme frustration and tilt that my move in that hand had created in the tilty blogger. So the comment calling me an idiot didn't faze me in the least, and I didn't mention it, complain about it, or even remember it until I saw it listed in a hand history on the tiltmonkey's blog this morning. But how does a guy complain in his blog about "digs directed at him", all of which being "entirely uncalled for", after he makes that statement above to another guy at the table and that statement is what started the "digs" to begin with? That my friends is what we call L-A-M-E.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, right? Nobody asked this tilter to start calling people names at the table, and in the end he showed how little he can take it in despite being very willing to dish it out first. Nobody cared about the names he started throwing around at the table either, don't get me wrong, but people shouldn't have to read him crying in his blog the next morning about uncalled for digs at him when he was the one calling people names in the first place and turning the chat from regular, fun and funny blogger chat into tilting rude commentary about other people's games.

Now go and pay this guy the money you owe him please. Hasn't several months been enough time by now?

See you tonight in the Mookie (10pm ET on full tilt, password as always is "vegas1"), and don't forget to re-read this post from my blog the other day before you head into tonight's latest BBT tournament. And for tonight's special bounty, anyone who manages to bust current BBT crusher Bayne within the first five players out today will receive a $11 transfer from me via full tilt to buy you in to next week's Mookie tournament.

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25 Comments:

Blogger Darren said...

Robert's Rules : "Making statements or taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play, whether or not the offender is involved in the pot."

I would say encouraging someone to fold and calling out your read of someone's hand while the hand is still live would be a breach of that rule.

But it doesn't matter, you'll find some way to worm yourself out of any responsibility as usual. Its always someone else's fault, right? Never yours right?

Ok I'm off. Eff you, eff your family.

11:12 PM  
Blogger bayne_s said...

SO if I am in the last 5 players busted out do I get the bounty?

11:22 PM  
Blogger Blinders said...

I would say that people not in a hand should make zero comments in chat as to what they think someone is holding, or what type of play they think should be made. In a live casino, you would be warned on the first offence, and probaly removed from the game if you kept it up. There is no dealer online, so nobody but the players can police this, but you also have a transcript online. I have reported such actions in the past to support, and will continue to do so when people cross this line (in a big way).

Based on the situation, I understand the ATo comment, but that is a guess at someones holding, so you should technically not do that. I would not be bothered by this instance, but I can see how that would really piss someone involved in the hand off. The comment had no bearing on the hand BTW. Just be careful with chat. You do this enough, and FT can suspend your account, and if people are really gunning for you you may get more complaints than you deserve.

The worst I see is in S&Gs or MTTs when a shorty is all-in and the other guys actually chat thier intensions of checking it down. I always report this, and have had accounts suspended as a result.

11:25 PM  
Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

To be clear, the ATo comment was not at all a guess at what the guy was holding and it was not my read of someone's hand. It was merely a direct reference to the chat that had occurred not 2 minutes previously between the two guys involved in the hand where Alan had mentioned a time that Victim overplayed (in his opinion) ATo. That's it. Even Victim would confirm this.

So FWIW I agree 100% that you should not be calling out your read of someone's hand, that is almost always wrong except in the kind of openly chatty, friendly games I'm talking about in my post. But that's not what happened here at all.

But hey what do I know. Eff me, eff my family. ;)

11:56 PM  
Blogger HighOnPoker said...

Don't twist my words, Hoy. I said nothing about a specific hand, so posting a hand history and asking me where the collusion is is a bullshit retort (i.e, "[Jordan] refers to inappropriate chat that occurred in this hand").

Whatever the case, if you don't know that it is inappropriate to encourage another players' actions, EVEN when you are joking, then I know I won't change your opinion. If you had learned poker in a casino instead of online, you'd understand this because a dealer or floor would've eventually spoken to you.

I'll post my last comment here verbatim:

"Hoy, I can't speak as to the veracity of the hand history. But I'm sure you can agree that in general, players should not be goading other players on how to act. That's not to say there was collussion, but merely the possibility or appearance of collussion. It's not your fault either, since you weren't the one doing the improper chat. I'm just saying that generally, we should all know by now not to tell another player how to act, even if we are joking around. Its like the rule about attorney conflicts; its enough that there is the appearance of a conflict, even if one does not exist. We must hold ourselves up to a high standard, such that we don't even create the appearance of improper conduct. I think that's a lesson as applied to poker that we should all learn."

12:09 AM  
Blogger Schaubs said...

Who is this darren guy who chooses not to share his profile with the readers. That is annoying. Slander someone and then hide, super cool.

This thread is so "high school" that I refuse to make any comments about anyone's play here. I went and read the victim's account of the activities and will keep my opinions to myself and not slam either writer.

After all, they can write whatever the Eff they want... which I guess includes darren.

cock knockers.

Can't we all just get along. It's a game. Once the game is over, you shake hands like men and move on.

12:10 AM  
Blogger Zachary said...

"Can't we all just get along. It's a game. Once the game is over, you shake hands like men and move on."

Amen.

I know that most of this debate centers around one specific hand and very specific circumstances, and that my opinion holds less than zero water, but the one thing I would mention is that I don't necessarily think your examples "great poker," in acting weak to lure people in, etc., really applies to this situation.

Like I said, I know there are a lot of specifics to this scenario that don't make it as clear cut, but generally speaking, I don't want people talking about a hand I'm in, regardless of their intentions. There's just too much potential for earnest comments to be misinterpreted, and that on top of intentional commentary that may affect the hand.

12:21 AM  
Blogger KajaPoker said...

HU for Bankrolls is the only way to solve this.

When I read your post I wasn't sure what your comment was about the ATo. I actually thought you were folding your own ATo hand.

I do agree that all this chatter is inappropriate. Even saying something like "you favorite hand, huh?" should not be allowed.

12:36 AM  
Blogger bayne_s said...

I know I've typed "check it down" in chat box many times when shorty is all-in.

I am also pretty sure I have been the shorty every time so hope Blinders hasn't reported me.

Will have to check hand history from last night bu I may have done it last night after I turned nutz when in SNG with Smokkee.

12:40 AM  
Blogger Miami Don said...

I wasn't there but I've been around this shit a million times and if I was there and then heard some bullshit like this, "That's not to say there was collussion, but merely the possibility or appearance of collussion." the war would be on.

I'm not a lawyer but if someone accused me on the appearance or possiblility of collusion without any facts or evidence and tarnishes my name as a cheater, which you would be calling me by that statement, well that's about all she wrote for me. I find that to be absolutely fucking dispictable and it would take everything in my control not to retaliate in a not so civil way.

Look the blogger in question is a donkey and he gets killed every single time he plays with the big boys. There is and never will be a controversy until this dude either plays at the levels that matches his abililty and bankroll or learns to shut his fucking mouth and quit thinking he's so much better than everyone else and that us bloggers are a bunch of donkey douchebags.

You rule Hoy!

12:47 AM  
Blogger Astin said...

I have to give props Hoy, you sure as hell know how to stoke a fire. "I'm going to sit back and watch" turns into just enough to annoy the piss out of the annoyed party and then bring in others. Brilliant! :)

I'll throw in my 2 cents on the chatting aspect though. I've stopped making any comments on cards while a hand is live unless I'm still in it. I've been warned for saying "I just knew my aces were no good" after folding pre-flop to a min raise with an ace on the board. So suggesting ATo, even if it wasn't really a read, can be really unwelcome to some players. Personally, I don't mind the joking comments, but anybody who's not in the hand and verbalizes a read on me is going to feel it.

As should be obvious, I think anything short of personal digs is acceptable if you're still playing the hand. THAT'S part of the psychology of the game. "Fold, I have the nuts." or asking your opponent if they're holding the cards you have (that happened to turn a straight) is perfectly acceptable. Seeing the nut flush you folded pre-flop hit and shouting "DAMMIT! I would have flopped that!" is grounds for a warning if not getting booted immediately as far as I'm concerned.

All that said, the blogger games are not much different than sitting around a table with your buddies, and in those instances, everything goes. Just keep it to those environments, and respect anyone who doesn't like it by keeping away from it when they're in a hand and you're not.

1:08 AM  
Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

Yeah I have to agree Astin, and I'm surprised more people are not specifically agreeing with this part of my comment; in a home game where it is common and openly known that the players are chatting and being chatty about hands that others are holding -- and I've played in several games like this over long periods of time -- talking at least "lightly" about what other players might be holding is accepted, common practice and I think to suggest that this type of activity is automatically forbidden or "extremely wrong" just doesn't take into account common practice in most (not all, but definitely most) of the home games I have played in for any long period of time. It is certainly the case in most blogger cash games and cash tables I have sat at.

Jordan if you're out there, you have really missed the point of my post. There isn't any word twisting going on. Here's the quote from your comment, that you yourself reproduced above:

It's not your fault either, since you weren't the one doing the improper chat.

Now, the way you wrote that ("the improper chat") definitely seems to suggest, if not to outright insinuate, that somebody at the table was doing improper chat. All I was doing was asking "where"? I would still like to know where the inappropriate chat was in the hand in question, because I just don't see it. Sorry if it seemed I am twisting anyone's words, I do not mean to be.

And btw, I did learn to play poker in casino, for about 20 years before I ever even heard of online poker.

1:49 AM  
Blogger StB said...

I think that the fact it is a blogger table gives quite a bit of leeway to what is said at a table. With that in mind. Don is correct that the guy shouldn't complain if they are playing above their head. Smearing someone's name because of one hand is not right.

Pushing with QQ to a re-raise? Seriously.

1:56 AM  
Blogger Alan aka RecessRampage said...

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.... this makes for great entertainment... This is like "Days of Our Lives - Poker Version". Ok, personally, this is how I feel.

I think, just like blinders said in his post about there are no set rules without exceptions, this is the case here. First of all, like Hoy said, his mentioning A-10 was pretty much a continuation of the conversation that was just going on when I told flux that I saw him minraise with A-10 in early position, only to come over the top all in against a guy that reraised. So, it's not like Hoy was trying to call out his hand.

Also, when Hoy said that, my reaction to the computer was "dammit Hoy, shut up! I want him to overplay a hand like A-10!" Having said that, I was all smiles as I was saying that too... why? Because I pretty much expected that kind of banter when weakplayer was asking around the bloggers as to who wanted in on the cash game. I mean if we were just gonna sit and play silent poker, I wouldn't have played in the 1-2NL game. I'd rather be making 2-4NL profits instead of 1-2NL profits...

So, after this long winding comment, what am I saying? I'm not trying to be on anyone's team here but all I'm saying is that I think it was in good fun. It was unfortunate that flux had such a big hand and was probably slightly tilting because of all the banter but you don't see basketball players complain that the crowd is booing him when he's shooting a free throw. I don't think there was anything illegal and for example, if flux did muck his queens because he felt that Hoy had a good read on me, I wouldn't have been p*ssed about it. Now if there was a similar situation like Hoy described at the tables, I would be livid. But again, nothing out of the ordinary was said in the chat box last night and if Hoy making a side comment like he continuously had been doing all through the night made me lose out on some profits, so be it. I chose to sit at that table because I expected that kind of banter which is not collusion. If I didn't want that or I didn't like it, I woulda left.

And like I commented on flux's blog, it certainly was not collusion. I respect the game and I will never allow myself to do that. I mean I've sat at the same table as my friend before (not a virtual friend but a real friend who could later kick my ass, if he wanted to) and taken his money. We've never talked about hands at the table while on the table, etc because that's just not something we would do. We might discuss certain hands later but that's what we all do here, obviously. You can choose to believe whatever you want but just wanted to clarify that as well.

2:12 AM  
Blogger Ryan said...

"I know I've typed "check it down" in chat box many times when shorty is all-in."

this is definitely collusion and i've reported people to support for this before.

as far as what hoy is saying, that's a little more hazy. it would more than likely depend on the mood of the table at the time. if you take the statement out of context it seems inappropriate.

if the whole table was being playful and making jokes/comments like this. than it's all in good fun and you shouldn't be taking it too seriously. i wasn't there though, so i can't really comment any further except that just because something wouldn't bother you, doesn't mean it's ok to be saying.

2:57 AM  
Blogger Steve said...

Just for the record, I'm a lurker who reads everyone's blogs and respects mostly everyones play. You absolutely can't blame Hoy for anything. EVERYTHING is fair game unless you reveal the true nature of your own cards IMO.
The ones against Hoy have huge egos and should STFU immediately. Like he said, if you can't stand the heat get outta the kitchen. This is a man's game, and if you wanna be a sissy and cry about it then find another game or maybe TURN OFF THE CHAT.

3:00 AM  
Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

Wow that comment from Steve sounds like it comes from me under another ID. Thanks man for the support.

And FWIW, typing "check it down" to another player in the chat box while a hand is being played is in my opinion super annoying. I wouldn't ever imagine reporting this kind of behavior, even in the 10,000 times it's happened against me, but you would not ever, ever find me doing that. I'm not into someone stating their read of another player or stating what is supposed to be an unstated intention to check down a hand. It's called "implicit" collusion for a reason, right?

3:18 AM  
Blogger Astin said...

Bingo on the "implicit collusion." As far as I know, it's actually against the rules in every casino/club I've been in to explicitly suggest checking down against an all-in. At the very least it's terrible form.

I have bitched at players late in tournaments that have bet on the turn at an empty side pot though. Usually along the lines of "you'd better have him beat." Of course, I fold when I say it.

Bayne's comment about saying it many times was obviously misread by Ryan. Bayne was saying HE was the shorty that was all-in those times. You see, that makes it funny.

3:36 AM  
Blogger Ryan said...

oops, good catch astin. i did misread bayne's comment.

4:56 AM  
Blogger Dr Zen said...

What a fucking ridiculous bitchfight. Hoy made a (not very) funny comment. In the tiltmonkey's shoes, I'd have found it mildly amusing, if I'd earlier shoved and busted with ATo or something similar. Suggesting that he is actually telling the guy to fold is plain silly. Hoy often comes over as a prick in his chat and comments on others, but I'd rather play with him day and night than five minutes with the whiny rules lawyers who think "fold your 72o, no good here" is anything but banter.

7:19 AM  
Blogger the original PushMonkey said...

gee, i thought playing against the same people thing was all about testing mettle and having a good time. if we start censoring ourselves from what most, myself included, view as necessary "humor" that breaks up the tedium of games we might as well just go play the SNGs against others. lighten up people. jeeze

1:56 PM  
Blogger TraumaPoker said...

I think we should call this episode "The Vagina Diaries" and I also think an American Gladiator style gauntlet ending is really the only good way to settle this.

7:57 PM  
Blogger golden said...

Losers often complain and deflect blame. My flopped quads cost me my stack 2 nights ago. I was royally pissed, but all I did was hit the power button and went to bed.

I can't put too much stock in anything someone says who just got stacked. Especially when he's pushing with QQ to a reraise. Even I don't do that.

8:09 PM  
Blogger TripJax said...

Darren....using "eff" instead of "fuck" is uberghey.

Just about as tarded as using uberghey instead of ubergay.

Wait, strike that last sentence.

8:44 PM  
Blogger Iakaris aka I.A.K. said...

Hoy no surprise I agree with you completely about the texture of the table. That big pot (relatively speaking) Alan and I played in Vegas when I tried to fold him out, I specifically heard you guessing my hand "I think Kc" or something to the effect to the guy to your right (can't remember which of us it was). Alan I doubt heard it, but I didn't give a shit. It registered as exactly what it was, harmless table chatter. If I had been holding the stone cold nuts I wouldve praying Alan heard it and was swayed by it. So it's value neutral IMO.

Darren, it hurts to lose. Everyone knows that man. But jesus dude, if it hurts that much; you are way way way the fuck over your limit.

6:07 AM  

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